1851 brass frame with octagon barrel may have existed

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webrx

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I like a lot of you thought that the .44 brass framed 1851 clone never existed in history and yes, I still own one, because I like shooting it, even at 20-25 grains its fun to play with. I also have steel ones, and 1858s, and conversion cylinders, and muzzle loading rifles, etc.

Now, I am not posting this to start an argument or flame war, and I am not saying this is gospel, but was doing some reading on BP revolvers and came across a couple articles about a brass framed confederate revolver, yes, maybe even a prototype in 44 made by Schneider and Glassick.

if you are interested, take a look - hope it is ok to post this as long as they are not active links.

muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/schneider-glassick.119168/

rprca.tripod.com/Schneider.html

I know - "I read it on the internet so it "MUST" be true"

NO, I am not saying it is true, but, who knows, anyone around in those days that can verify? All we have is anecdotal evidence that the $200 brass frame in .44 that you bought at Cabelas may have once existed, or it didn't, either way I found it interesting reading just the same.

d
 
Now, I am not posting this to start an argument or flame war, and I am not saying this is gospel, but was doing some reading on BP revolvers and came across a couple articles about a brass framed confederate revolver, yes, maybe even a prototype in .44 made by Schneider and Glassick.

S&G only made about 50 Colt 1851 Navy "type" brass framed .36 revolvers, of which only three have been positively identified as such. There are reports of possibly 2 others, also .36 caliber. I have photos of a perceived #5 .36 that has not yet been verified as it is a private collection.

if you are interested, take a look: muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/schneider-glassick.119168/: Schneider & Glassick | The Muzzleloading Forum

That is also a .36, but is definitely a defarbed/antiqued Italian revolver. It is serially marked like the original brass-frame Griswold & Gunnison, of which 3600+ were produced, .36 only.


This forum was the creation of Dr. Jim L. Davis (Replica Percussion Revolver Collector Association), Claremore OK. Dr. Davis passed September 2019 and most of his collection was sold to October Country November/December 2019. Here is a statement from Davis on that site:

For my purposes I use the nomenclatures of Model 1851 Navy Brass for .36cal. and Model 1851 Army Brass for .44cal. The Model 1851 Army Brass has a rebated Cylinder.

In addition, all of the defarbed/antiqued revolvers you have shown photos of are .36 caliber.

All we have is anecdotal evidence that the $200 brass frame in .44 that you bought at Cabelas may have once existed, or it didn't, either way I found it interesting reading just the same.

I would like to know the source of the anecdotal evidence. Not looking for an argument, just giving my $.02 worth.

Regards,

Jim
 
well here is a couple more - that make it appear that at least the 36 existed.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...chneider---glassick.cfm?gun_id=101233282#lg-6

I don't know if it sold or if it is still up for auction, but that listing is at least 2 years old.

Here are some photos of the possible #5 S&G. All the important parts are serial numbered 25. I have a friend in SC whom has looked at the inscription on the backstrap: his wife is somewhat of the family genealogist and has confirmed that CPT. Edward Palfrey served in a Virginia regiment during the ACW.

S-G-009.jpg

S-G-002.jpg

S-G-003.jpg

S-G-005.jpg

S-G-006.jpg

S-G-008.jpg

S-G-010.jpg

S-G-012.jpg

Regards,

Jim
 
Way cool - Thanks expat for adding that info above.

Again I was not saying the 44 actually existed - I even quoted "i read it on the internet". I thought it was a good read for folks that like BP and BP history (or even conspiracy theories).

Definition: Anecdotal evidence: Evidence only supported by stories that people tell. (i.e. no real data to back them up)

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/schneider-glassick.119168/
from the above article:

"Also there is a theory that a "tool room" or prototype of a .44 version may exist somewhere, so all those $170 brass frame .44 "Navy" revolvers that Cabelas sells a million of a year in blister packs are in fact a possible accidental repro of a revolver that "may" have existed".

The .44 prototype may have never existed, or just be a theory, or a wish by someone that wants it to exist, who knows, maybe the info above will help someone feel better about owning a brass frame 51 clone in 36 or 44.

I found the info about S&G and a brass framed 1851 "clone" interesting, along with (if it is true) that there maybe was a octagon barrel and brass frame on an 1851 clone somewhere in history even if there are only 3 or 4 of them. Wouldn't it be cool to find one in an old farm house or grandpas old chest or something?

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I am not trying to change anyone's mind. :)

I shoot all kinds of different calibers now (yes bug bitten) but when I started I bought one of the brassers, not because I believed it was real, but because it was inexpensive and I wanted to try BP.

D
 
Don't let me be the bearer of "bad" tidings. Stranger things have happened. I would urge you to keep on with your research, and if you can corroborate your findings, we will all learn from that.

That's what it is all about insofar as my studies.

As an aside, a few years ago I wanted a Pietta 1862 J.H Dance and Brothers .36 and was told to give it up as Pietta only produced a mongrel .44 Dance. I kept on with my research and found a Pietta Dance .36 (BH/1996) which was only one of 35 ever produced. I know it is "only" a repro, but it made my day.

Pietta-Dance-36-C00013-Cased-004.jpg

If interested:

Replica 1862 J.H. Dance And Brothers .36 and .44 Revolver (Pietta and Uberti)

Don't ever give up.

Regards,

Jim
 
I made a more correct 36 caliber replica by using a Pietta G&G frame and cylinder and a barrel from a 51 navy.
 
...As an aside, a few years ago I wanted a Pietta 1862 J.H Dance and Brothers .36 and was told to give it up as Pietta only produced a mongrel .44 Dance...

I'm curious why you call the .44 Dance a mongrel since Dance and Bros were know to have produced many more .44s than .36s.
Was it just your preference to have a .36 or is there more to it?
 
I'm curious why you call the .44 Dance a mongrel since Dance and Bros were know to have produced many more .44s than .36s.
Was it just your preference to have a .36 or is there more to it?

The original Dance .44 revolver was based upon a frame size that was less than a Dragoon frame but larger than a Navy frame. The current production of the Pietta Dance .44 is based upon a Navy frame that has had the entire water table lowered to accommodate a .44 cylinder that is not rebated.

The Dance .44 cylinder compared to a Navy .36 cylinder.

Pietta-Dance-44-Cyl.jpg

Pietta-Dance-44-And-36.jpg

Like a lot of Pietta stuff, but some of it is it is far from historical.

Regards,

Jim
 
Colt could have designed a .44 Navy if they wanted. They chose instead to improve the barrel, loading lever, and grip and call it the 1860 Army. Few things aggravate me worse than a brass framed .44 “Navy.”
 
I have always read Colt did not make "brass" frame 1851 revolvers and the Union Army and Navy only issued iron/steel frame revolvers and that small Confederate factories made revolvers copying successful designs using bell metal (an alloy more bronze than brass) instead of iron or steel.

I considered my "brass" frame .36 1851 to be a replica of a Confederate knockoff, not a Colt replica.
 
Actually, there were more Confederate "Colt type" revolvers that had iron/steel frames than brass frames, all .36 caliber.

Brass: Schneider & Glassick and Griswold & Gunnison.

Iron/steel: Leech & Rigdon, Rigdon & Ansley, Augusta Machine Works, Columbus Fire Arms Manufacturing Company, L.E Tucker & Sons, J.H. Dance & Brothers, and George Todd.

The only other brass framed revolver of Confederate manufacture was the Spiller & Burr, which was a copy of the Whitney revolver.

Regards,

Jim
 
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