I want Beretta to make a new pocket pistol

Look at the prices of the Tomcat and other smaller steel guns Beretta makes, they do not sell the best. That said I love those Beretta's and have several but there are not many of us that do

Check out the Pico. Lighter, more powerful, and way less expensive than the Tomcat. What I like about it is that only the grip module is plastic, everything else is steel.

I have two Beretta 950BS's, one chambered in 22 Short and the other chambered in 25 ACP.

I've put alot of rounds through the 22 Short model and it has been 100% reliable. I have not fired the 25 ACP model much but it also has been 100% reliable with the few rounds that have been cycled through it.

I'm not sure of the differences in design between the Model 950BS and the Model 21.

Of course, both rounds are not great self defense rounds.

The KelTec P-32 (32 ACP) or P3-AT (380 ACP) are similar sized guns and function reliably. The P-32 is more pleasant to shoot but the P3-AT packs a bit more wallop.

Probably had a half dozen or more Beretta Model 950s over the years and never had any problems with them. Of course they were in .25ACP and weren't shot all that much anyways. Also had a Model 20 (double action .25ACP), and a couple of Model 21s that both preferred slightly hotter .22 ammo to function properly. Again no problems with how they functioned or with any defects in terms of how they were built.

I haven't tried the Tomcat as there's just too much going on there with cracked frames and what not that I am definitely not interested in taking a chance on. The Pico is alright but both it and the Nano don't have really good ergonomics, at least not for me.

The Pico is a fine pocket gun already here and has every feature one would desire in a pocket gun.

I still have a 21A in .22LR that I've owned for over two decades. I'm not a fan of it at all as anything other than a pocket plinker. It simply has never been reliable enough.

If I wanted a pistol that was smaller than a Kel-Tec 32, I'd get a NAA mini-revolver, probably in 22 Short, because at that barrel length, what's the difference between Short and Long Rifle anyway? (Also I have a brick of Shorts for my father's High Standard Model C.)

Before I can beleive that making a new 25 automatic makes sense, I'd want to see one that was usefully smaller and lighter than a Kel-Tec 32, and still at least as practical to operate as an NAA revolver. I don't know of any now. Maybe adapting some of the Soviet 5.45mm PSM design principles to new materials would do it.

The APX Carry isn't very big, single stack 9. Maybe not a true micro pocket pistol, but still rather small

I've returned a lot of Picos to Beretta for warranty work over the years. I steer folks to the LCP II instead. Better gun with a better warranty that you probably won't need. I love my little Berettas still carry my 418 every so often.

In my opinion the 950 is a better gun than the model 21's I am not sure why they switched.

Walther makes the Beretta you're looking for, it's called the TPH.

Monac said:

If I wanted a pistol that was smaller than a Kel-Tec 32, I'd get a NAA mini-revolver, probably in 22 Short, because at that barrel length, what's the difference between Short and Long Rifle anyway? (Also I have a brick of Shorts for my father's High Standard Model C.)

Before I can beleive that making a new 25 automatic makes sense, I'd want to see one that was usefully smaller and lighter than a Kel-Tec 32, and still at least as practical to operate as an NAA revolver. I don't know of any now. Maybe adapting some of the Soviet 5.45mm PSM design principles to new materials would do it.

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The difference is the .22 LR can shoot 45 grain bullets and still shoot .22 Short, while the .22 Short's heaviest bullet is usually 29 grains and can't shoot .22 LR.

The 5.45x18 would be an excellent caliber for a low recoil pocket pistol.

in a blow back gun the extractor isn't needed if the chamber is even modestly cleaned. Larry Seecamp once stated that the extractor on the LWS guns was to aid with unloading, not reliability during firing. Beretta did it right, they just didn't think out the Tomcat frame cracking problem.

JERRY said:

in a blow back gun the extractor isn't needed if the chamber is even modestly cleaned. Larry Seecamp once stated that the extractor on the LWS guns was to aid with unloading, not reliability during firing. Beretta did it right, they just didn't think out the Tomcat frame cracking problem.

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Rimfire duds sure make owning a Beretta Bobcat in .22 LR interesting as sometimes an unfired round will fling right out, and sometimes it won't. A minor inconvenience in a plinker, but a major problem if counted on for self defense as a tap-rack drill doesn't really work with this gun.

I've got a Beretta Pico in .380 that's had a hundred rounds thru it w/o problems. Beretta has done improvements since the Pico was released so you'd want a newer one.

BSW

TTv2 said:

The difference is the .22 LR can shoot 45 grain bullets and still shoot .22 Short, while the .22 Short's heaviest bullet is usually 29 grains and can't shoot .22 LR.

The 5.45x18 would be an excellent caliber for a low recoil pocket pistol.

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A) Regarding 22 Short vs 22 Long Rifle, 22 LR would be the way to go simply because of ammo availabilty. I assumed that from such a short barrel, the difference in real effectiveness would be negligible.

B) I agree with you about 5.45x18mm. Unfortunately, a US manufacturer would have to tool up for it. When it was first encountered in the West, it was considered some kind of KGB superweapon, and there was a lot of talk about how it could penetrate a standard NATO helmet, so it was classed as armor piercing and therefore a danger to cops. It couldn't be imported. Neither could the PSM pistol, under the size restrictions of the Gun Control Act of 1968. Some pairing of specialty gun maker and specialty ammo maker would be needed to jump-start things.

C) As a complete aside, I wonder if 25 ACP is low-powered enough to for a pistol to be made via 3-D printing with some steel or aluminum inserts?

chicharrones said:

Rimfire duds sure make owning a Beretta Bobcat in .22 LR interesting as sometimes an unfired round will fling right out, and sometimes it won't. A minor inconvenience in a plinker, but a major problem if counted on for self defense as a tap-rack drill doesn't really work with this gun.

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don't use a rim fire semi auto for self defense. if you must use a rim fire use it in a revolver. if you want to use the tiny Beretta use them in .25acp.

I personally think the .25 after over 100 years of service is more than enough for the vast majority of self defense situations. I have dozens of .25s. This TPH .25 is my only US made Walther and is the best pocket pistol I have ever owned. 100% flawless in every way. An Ulm version is on my bucket list. This hard to find .25 TPH is the only one I have ever seen in person. I got it for $450 7 or 8 years back in a pawn shop at closing time on Christmas Eve. The owner offered me 50% off sticker on any gun in the shop. One of my best gun deals ever. It's not for sale and never will be while I am alive. TPH is the perfect pocket pistol.

Monac said:

A) Regarding 22 Short vs 22 Long Rifle, 22 LR would be the way to go simply because of ammo availabilty. I assumed that from such a short barrel, the difference in real effectiveness would be negligible.

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Now, ged yohr azz do ma's.

B) I agree with you about 5.45x18mm. Unfortunately, a US manufacturer would have to tool up for it. When it was first encountered in the West, it was considered some kind of KGB superweapon, and there was a lot of talk about how it could penetrate a standard NATO helmet, so it was classed as armor piercing and therefore a danger to cops. It couldn't be imported. Neither could the PSM pistol, under the size restrictions of the Gun Control Act of 1968. Some pairing of specialty gun maker and specialty ammo maker would be needed to jump-start things.

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Ian McCollum did a video of the PSM and shot a soft vest (can't remember if it was Lvl II or IIIa) and the bullets penetrated the vest, so yes, they are inherently armor piercing, but so is 7.62x25 and that stuff is still imported into the US.

The reality is that US gun manufacturers are very hesitant to make guns in "European" calibers other than 9mm and 10mm. Look how long the 5.7x28 had been around and Ruger last year finally made a pistol for it. I understand the AWB made a 5.7 gun useless, but that ended 17 years ago. Beyond the 5.7x28, no US gun maker has made a 9x18, 7.62x25, or 5.45x18 and the 7.62x54r was only made by Winchester 100+ years ago due to a contract with Russia.

Other than the 9x18, which is apparently something you can get with a simple barrel swap with a .380, you can't tell me nobody would buy a modern handgun in 7.62 Tok, a PSM clone in 5.45x18, or a lever action in 7.62x54. There is a definite interest in Russia calibers in the US and a lot of that has to do with the cheap ammo and milsurps, but also they are unique in their sheer ability to just plain work.

I think between the Pico and the Nano, Beretta probably considers their modern pocket pistol space covered

I keep telling Beretta to give the APX carry the trigger of others in that line. Why re-issue the Nano in wanna-be APX skin?

Jimbo80 said:

I personally think the .25 after over 100 years of service is more than enough for the vast majority of self defense situations. I have dozens of .25s. This TPH .25 is my only US made Walther and is the best pocket pistol I have ever owned. 100% flawless in every way. An Ulm version is on my bucket list. This hard to find .25 TPH is the only one I have ever seen in person. I got it for $450 7 or 8 years back in a pawn shop at closing time on Christmas Eve. The owner offered me 50% off sticker on any gun in the shop. One of my best gun deals ever. It's not for sale and never will be while I am alive.View attachment 979182 TPH is the perfect pocket pistol.

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I have to say -- I don't think I've ever heard a negative word about the TPH in .25 ACP chambering from anyone.

I have a U.S.-made TPH in .22 LR. One chambered in .25 has never before been on my radar -- but you may have persuaded me to keep a lookout.

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Jimbo80 said:

I personally think the .25 after over 100 years of service is more than enough for the vast majority of self defense situations.

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I personally think this is true IF in the vast majority of self defense situations you don't actually have to shoot anyone. I am very dubious about its truth in the majority of cases where you do have to shoot someone. In fact, I personally would act as if it was false.

OK, we have both stated our personal opinions. That's a good start. What happens next? Endless arguing, or do we start shooting people in order to establish facts? If the latter, I offer to let you go first, in order to be polite.