How to ship a sold handgun more cheaply?

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George P said:
That is NOT a fact. If I ship directly to the buyer's FFL, there is no transfer fee on my end.
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I know this as well.

I was comparing and contrasting the option of shipping directly to an FFL using a carrier, in which carrier fees are higher.

VS

what was being said is a cheaper route of going to an FFL and having it shipped by the FFL with a transfer at both ends.


If one reads the thread I believe my points were clear on the contrasting options of shipping.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
I guess any FFL can ship however they want regardless of cost if his/her customer wants to pay the freight for the prescribed method of shipping.
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Well of course. But 99% don't want/need Overnight or Next Day when USPS Priority Mail gets it there in 2-3 days.


You seem to think that your customers benefit from your use of USPS.
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When 99% of them choose USPS Priority Mail over UPS/FedEx.......I'm pretty sure the CUSTOMER makes that choice as to which benefits him.


My FFL uses FedEx because he's rural and he feels they give him better service. The nearest PO is 14 miles away so that may have something to do with it. The USPS carrier may also have something to do with it, IDK.
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Of course that has a lot to do with it. I have at least eight US Post Offices within 14 miles and at least a half dozen USPS Contract Postal Units (inside a business).
Thats the nice thing about shipping via USPS.......no surcharge when shipping to a rural address. FedEx and UPS charge extra.

I do know that Buds Guns uses FedEx so whatever works for you.
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You know this how?:scrutiny:
I ask because its not correct. Bud's uses UPS and only when their UPS renewal contract is being negotiated will they switch to FedEx. (and thats been over a year)
Bud's volume of packages is so high that their cost to ship a handgun UPS Next Day is less than USPS Priority.
 
mnrivrat said:
Why would the gun have to be transferred to the FFL
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It has been pointed out repeatedly that control of the firearm is transferred as soon as you turn it over to the FFL. Not ownership. That confuses a lot of people thinking that the fact they own it is relevant under the regulation of who it is transferred to. The control of the firearm defines who it is transferred to. You turn it over to their control and you've transferred it. The FFL is obligated by regulation to log it while in their control. Sometimes (almost always) regulatory language defies common language usage.
 
BreechFace said:
@mnrivrat my post #4 asked the question whether one has to transfer to an FFL as a shipper. I’m ignorant to whether one does or not, never done it. I would’ve thought a transfer would’ve had to take place, given the FFL is possessing the firearm to ship it.
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The dealer I worked for was a pretty careful person when it came to following regulations. That said I can not personally quote BATF regulations on this matter. That said the person who was shipping did the packaging and all else. we simply added the packaged gun to the pile picked up by the USPS. There are always cases where the dealer handles a gun for purposes of evaluation, appraisals, and other short periods of time that do not seem to meet the definition of taking position of the firearm, and therefore do not require a transfer paperwork to be done. Id my dealer was not in compliance by acting as a shipper without taking position then perhaps someone can post the BATF regulation that indicates he was not doing it correctly. I do not pretend to know with absolute certainty.
 
dogtown tom said:
Seriously?
Customer hands a gun to the dealer, then goes home. Dealer has that gun in his possession. Why on earth would you think that he doesn't need to record the acquisition?
"Only acting as the shipper" means he took possession and will then ship the gun.




Merely a serious violation of ATF regulations. ;)
No to mention the felony that occurs when the dealer ships a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun via USPS. Postal regulations require the dealer to submit a USPS Form 1508 with handgun shipments.

Thanks for the information. The confusion seems to be around what constitutes "taking position". If you hand a gun over to a dealer for the dealer to look at it and give opinion on its value and you go out for lunch and come back in an hour to pick it up is that taking position ? Or does it make it different if you stay at the location while the dealer looks at the gun ? If you bring the gun in and hour before the USPS comes to pick it up is that taking position ? Mind you I have no dog in the hunt in this issue, I am merely trying to add my observations to this thread. Does the BATF have a definition of what constitutes "taking position" ?

"Merely a shipping agent" is a lame excuse for trying to intentionally ignore the recordkeeping requirements of federal law.



I do.........:D
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tarosean said:
Yep too many FFLs will no longer receive from individuals because of associated problems.
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Mine will still do it, but you are right.
I've slowed way down on buying from individuals that do not clearly state shipping (thru an FFL with a license copy)
in their text.
I've just gotten too many from individuals that were shipped USPS in violation.
Never had one lost, but I do not think the seller could go to USPS to get his money back, and
that might leave me in the cold as well.

JT
 
BreechFace said:
Option #1: Ship the firearm yourself to an FFL (only one FFL transfer fee is incurred, on the recipient end)
Option #2: Take firearm to local FFL, pay transfer fee, pay shipping fees and incur another transfer fee on the recipient end
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With option #1, you must pay exorbitant UPS / FedEx Air Freight charges.
With option #2, you do have to pay an extra FFL fee on the shipping end. However, an FFL can use MUCH cheaper USPS mailing that you can't and that might be enough to offset the extra FFL fee. You'll have to get an estimate from the FFL on your end to decide which is the best way for you.
 
You know this how?:scrutiny:
I ask because its not correct. Bud's uses UPS and only when their UPS renewal contract is being negotiated will they switch to FedEx. (and thats been over a year)
Bud's volume of packages is so high that their cost to ship a handgun UPS Next Day is less than USPS Priority.

It is correct, I just asked them. They also use UPS and USPS. So any carrier depending on what's being shipped.
 
George P said:
Agree; my wife makes and sells jewelry on Etsy - she ships half dozen or so small parcels every week to all corners of the globe they all go USPS in padded envelopes. Cheapest way to go.
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My neighbor has a small business. He makes and sells metal artwork. All of his work will fit in a priority box so that's how he ships. Works great for him because USPS carrier picks up at his shop. Our USPS carrier is great because she's contract. The previous USPS employee carrier was so lazy she didn't want to leave her vehicle.
 
mnrivrat said:
The dealer I worked for was a pretty careful person when it came to following regulations. That said I can not personally quote BATF regulations on this matter. That said the person who was shipping did the packaging and all else. we simply added the packaged gun to the pile picked up by the USPS.
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He wasn't careful. Again, if he was mailing a handgun (whether he recorded it in his book or not) he is required by USPS to submit the USPS Form 1508. On that form the dealer certifies that "The undersigned is a manufacturer of firearms or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein."
1. If he isn't recording that firearm in his books......it isnt a customary trade shipment as ATF regs apply.
2. If he is "just adding a packaged gun" in a USPS box from a customer....he's aiding and abetting a felony.




There are always cases where the dealer handles a gun for purposes of evaluation, appraisals, and other short periods of time that do not seem to meet the definition of taking position of the firearm, and therefore do not require a transfer paperwork to be done.
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Well of course a dealer can evaluate, handle, ogle, examine, appraise or even repair a firearm without it being a transfer.........but the customer darn well better be there at the counter. Once that customer walks out the door it needs to be recorded as an acquisition. If it was left with the dealer for repair or replacement, it doesn't require a 4473/NICS to hand back to the customer.


Id my dealer was not in compliance by acting as a shipper without taking position then perhaps someone can post the BATF regulation that indicates he was not doing it correctly. I do not pretend to know with absolute certainty.
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See post 39 above.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
You know this how?:scrutiny:
I ask because its not correct. Bud's uses UPS and only when their UPS renewal contract is being negotiated will they switch to FedEx. (and thats been over a year)
Bud's volume of packages is so high that their cost to ship a handgun UPS Next Day is less than USPS Priority.
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It is correct, I just asked them. They also use UPS and USPS. So any carrier depending on what's being shipped.
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Sure you did. Bud's hasn't shipped handguns via FedEx in over a year, using UPS exclusively................something you claimed they didn't use.
In twelve years Bud's has never shipped a single handgun to me via USPS. The reason why? They can ship cheaper using UPS due to their volume discount.
 
dogtown tom said:
Sure you did. Bud's hasn't shipped handguns via FedEx in over a year, using UPS exclusively................something you claimed they didn't use.
In twelve years Bud's has never shipped a single handgun to me via USPS. The reason why? They can ship cheaper using UPS due to their volume discount.
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I never claimed Bud's didn't use UPS, I said they used FedEx. They told me they did so I'll roll with that.

Trying not to get this thread closed.
 
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Seems my last post got messed up somehow ? A lot of comments and opinions but I missed seeing a BATF explanation of what constitutes a transfer . I guess rather than me adding to confusion I will bow out of further comment on this thread.
 
mnrivrat said:
Seems my last post got messed up somehow ? A lot of comments and opinions but I missed seeing a BATF explanation of what constitutes a transfer . I guess rather than me adding to confusion I will bow out of further comment on this thread.
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Sorry, I thought §478.125 Record of receipt and disposition was self explanatory.
You won't find a definition of "transfer" in ATF regulations because not all terms need a definition.
But a quick Google shows several ATF documents, rulings and guides that do go into greater detail on when ATF believes a transfer of possession occurs:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55481/download
"....Neither the GCA nor its implementing regulations define the term “transfer.” The common legal definition of “transfer” broadly encompasses any method of disposing of an asset. A “transfer” includes any change in dominion or control of a firearm, whether temporary or permanent, commercial or noncommercial. A change in dominion or control may occur even when such change does not convey title to the firearm..."

In short, when the customer handed your gun shop that handgun, a transfer occurred.






 
mnrivrat said:
...I missed seeing a BATF explanation of what constitutes a transfer . ....
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In law words will generally be read, understood, and applied according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:
...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...
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Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):


And possession means:
1 a : the act of having or taking into control...
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Thank you Frank. Using the first Legal - Dictionary wording it would seem to me that an FFL could act as a shipping agent as the firearm is not being sold to him , nor is it disposed to him or the owner is not giving up his interest to him. As far as possession in light of the other three qualifiers as part of the description for a transfer it would in this case have a meaning of giving up ones interest in the item to the FFL holder which is not the case. Nor would it be the case if you brought in a gun to trade and it is handed to the dealer to look at and decide what he would allow you for it. If the owner decides it is not enough it is handed back to him and no transfer is done. That is how I read that explanation of the legal dictionary . Whoever else wants to take it differently is welcome. Like I said I have no dog in the hunt I was simply sharing what the FFL I worked for was doing. Personally it appears to me he was not breaking the law, but I am not a lawyer and I still don't know what the different meanings of is-is .
PS: I do not know if postal regulations have changed since the period of time I worked for the FFL. Perhaps they no longer ship handguns from anybody including a dealer ?
 
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mnrivrat said:
Thank you Frank. Using the first Legal - Dictionary wording it would seem to me that an FFL could act as a shipping agent as the firearm...
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No, that is wrong. The thing is that there is more law on the subject than just a definition of "transfer." Unless you understand all the applicable law, you can't properly opine on the matter. And transfer is about physical possession -- the purposes fir which one takes physical control of something are irrelevant. Handing a gun to someone to look at is still a transfer, albeit one of very short duration.

Furthermore, under 27 CFR 478.125(e):
Each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms....
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A court would find that an FFL taking possession of a gun for the purposes of shipping it for someone is a "receipt"and shipping it is a "disposition."

Now, leave it at that.
 
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