chain fire in black powder cap-and-ball revolver

I did with an old brass framed .44 non historically accurate revolver. I blame the fact that I was having to pinch the caps to get them to stay on. Seemed as if the chain fire crossed from one cone to the next. Only two chambers fired thankfully. No injury.
Nowadays I use the proper sized caps for my revolver shooting. No chain fires since (that incident occurred back in about 1989).

Jimster’s post is consistent with what an experienced “cap gun” shooter told me: most chain fires are caused at the rear of the revolver. Smearing grease over the seated balls won’t prevent that.

In my early shooting using Crisco over under size balls cast in the brass mold from a cased set. Hot gun melting Crisco spilled powder did it.
The last time was with SlixShot nipples in a Euroarms, when the nipples were to long and set off the caps against the frame with recoil

Anyone seen this yet?

Howdy

Back around 1970 or so. The pistol was this brass framed, 44 caliber 'Navy'. Yeah, I know Colt never made a 44 caliber Navy, but I did not know that then.






This was before Wonder Wads existed. The standard procedure back then was to smear some Crisco over the balls after they had been loaded.

I was out in a field, aiming at a woodchuck. I pulled the trigger and the gun almost jumped out of my hand. One ball went down the bore like it was supposed to, the one in the next chamber came out, slammed into the solid part of the barrel below the bore, and took off for parts unknown.

Yeah, I know all about all the theories that chain fires are usually caused by loose fitting caps.

No one will ever convince me 100% that is what happened in this instance. There is not much that seals a ball in the chamber of a C&B revolver. When the ball is seated and a ring of lead is shaved off, the surface that seals the ball in the chamber is very short. Not much more than 1/16" or so. Back in those days, on a hot summer day, when the revolver fired, the Crisco over the ball in the next chamber ALWAYS melted from the heat of the gasses escaping from the barrel/cylinder gap. Those hot gasses melted the Crisco and changed it from a thick, fluffy solid to runny oil. If the seal in the chamber was less than ideal, for instance if there was a wrinkle or crease in the side of the ball where the seal was supposed to be, there could be a void which could serve as a perfect path for a stray spark from the barrel/cylinder gap to find its way to the powder charge under the ball in the next chamber.

Later, when Wonder Wads were invented, I always placed one between the powder and the ball. A 1/8" or so felt wad makes a much better spark arrestor than a thin coating of runny, melted Crisco.

I can’t remember. Probably that ugly yellow tube of bore butter cream.

I still have the ugly bastard. Arbor is very wiggily now. Not sure why I’ve kept it but I’m kinda glad I did.

Had my Walker chain fire, was pinching caps and it had poorly fitted nipples. I changed them to T/C hotshot nipples and never had it happen again.

hrt4me said:

Who here has actually experienced a chain fire in your own black powder cap-and-ball revolver?

Were you in hindsight able to diagnose what might have led to that occurrence?

Click to expand...

#1: Loose caps, piched to fit on nipples.
Get a tight fitting cap that will stay put during firing.
#2: Undersize balls, that move forward under recoil, spilling powder igniting that chambers charge.
You want a ball shaveing a fair lead ring as you press it home in cylinder.

When I was just starting out, I bought any old percussion caps (the pawn shop only stocked the #11) and I needed a #10

I bought the only .451 lead round balls.
Only on loading to discover they pretty much slip fit the cylinders.
I learned to step on the ball to mash them ( ) out enuf to shave a ring on loading.
It Helps to get the right size ball.
Again I bought the only lead balls they stocked.
Loose caps and undersize balls resulted in my one and only chain fire.

I smacked the undersize lead balls with a hammer on the bench vise anvil to get them to swell out, they worked on loading by shaving a lead ring, you use what you have if thats all you got.
I was miles from any reliable blackpowder supply with a selection.
I just loaded it as a single shot till I bought tighter percussion caps.

Hey Guys,

We have a Chain Fire Log over at the 1858 Forum,
I posted this link there. Good video, shows much detail.

First off, NO Safety Glasses.
Looks like the chain fire came from the front.
I've asked people about them, usually it's the fired chamber & one on each side
and caps on the chain fired chambers did not go off.
Good write up on chain fires,
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html

AntiqueSledMan.

I was shooting ball powder blanks outta my Pietta 1858 on the 4th (at family’s place) and I didn’t have lube cause I left it at my place, Loaded up paper towel wad blanks, no lube, no cream of wheat. Just powder, primer, and towel. Shot off a few fine, but then a bottom chamber caught on fire and while it was technically a chain fire from a lower chamber’s paper towel being ignited, it was a slow fizzle rather than a bang. I kept shooting the rest of the night with no problems after using brisket fat as lube wiped over the chamber as you would with crisco.
I agree with previous post, felt wad is way better than the mess of wiping on runny crisco, I’ve had great success using a harbor freight hollow punch to cut out felt circles and put them in a pan with melted crisco and beeswax. So much cleaner on the range.

AntiqueSledMan said:

Hey Guys,

We have a Chain Fire Log over at the 1858 Forum,
I posted this link there. Good video, shows much detail.

First off, NO Safety Glasses.
Looks like the chain fire came from the front.
I've asked people about them, usually it's the fired chamber & one on each side
and caps on the chain fired chambers did not go off.
Good write up on chain fires,
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html

AntiqueSledMan.

Click to expand...

I tried to open your attached link and got a 404 Not Found.

The one and only time, first and last time I tried 777, first cylinder/six shots ran fine, second cylinder, second shot, chained fired. Pistol (1860) had never chain fired before, in like 20 years. Don't remember if it was loaded with wads. No grease or goo over the balls. Caps were pinched. Sheared the loading lever latch stud, and front sight off the barrel. !! Has not done it since, over another 20 years, but I've been using wads ever since. I have no theories, as I still do not completely understand chain fires to blame this, or that, or the other thing. Could be either the front, or rear of the cylinder as far as I could say, sometimes one or the other...or both when it really gets going?

If you are feeling really paranoid you can just do everything,
Pinch caps on nipple if they aren’t already super duper tight (which might has always been), put a layer of cornmeal/cream of wheat inbetween powder and ball, and then put grease over the ball. Those three things in conjunction would have me feeling pretty safe in regards to chain fire protection.

Hello Rex,

Here's a pdf with step by step of the chain fire.

AntiqueSledMan.

I dont use lube, throw a measure of powder in chamber, ram home a oversize ball, shaving off a decent ring of lead, then cap with some snug tite caps,
You wont have a chain fire.

Have your cylinder sealed tight in the back and tight in front, leaves no place for fire to get at the other chambers.

Jimster said:

I did with an old brass framed .44 non historically accurate revolver. I blame the fact that I was having to pinch the caps to get them to stay on. Seemed as if the chain fire crossed from one cone to the next. Only two chambers fired thankfully. No injury.
Nowadays I use the proper sized caps for my revolver shooting. No chain fires since (that incident occurred back in about 1989).

Click to expand...

Same exact thing for me. Twice. Probably the same gun too, 1851 brasser. No injuries, no damage.

Loose fitting caps will do it. Like another poster said, if it happens up front, then the ball would have to be pretty loose.

I personally disagree with the whole shaving big rings of lead idea. Unless it's being shaved close to the groove diameter, your accuracy will suffer. I'm reaming my cylinders now for that very reason.

ETA: I've always used 50/50 beeswax and crisco. Sometimes with wads too. But only for the ease of cleaning.

The reason I use .457 lead round ball is they shoot pretty good out of my .45/70 so just stock one size ball.

Rex in OTZ said:

The reason I use .457 lead round ball is they shoot pretty good out of my .45/70 so just stock one size ball.

Click to expand...

Same here. And for pretty much the same reason.

But wether it be .454 or .457, if its shaving it down too much (to .446 in my current case), that's far too much. Italian repros seem to have under sized chambers.

I'm reaming my cylinders with a 29/64 reamer to bring them to .4531 which will match the groove diameter much better. I had the foresight to do a before and after accuracy test that I will post up in the next couple weeks.

I tried reaming my own chambers once...it was a disaster lol. A lot harder than it looks.. I ended up having a machinist friend do a couple cylinders for me instead. I did notice way better accuracy though. The guns are .36 cal pietta navies..original chamber size was .367, has them opened up to .375 which makes them .003 over groover diameter.

Hey Guys,

I really don't think it comes from the cap end, least ways not a true chain fire.
I can see where a battered ring on a brass framed revolver could allow the cylinder
to move back thus causing a capped nipple to hit the ring and fire.
In the previous video I posted, or the pdf, you do see the next cap ignite only after the chamber had fired.
Here is another video, this time it was attempted with undersized balls.


I really believe John Fuhring hit the nail on the head with his powder trail theory.
Paper or Brass Cartridges are the safest way to go.

Just my opinion, AntiqueSledMan.

If you shave a light ring of lead then you dont have much surface tension on the cylinder wall holding that ball stationary on recoil.
If you shave off a little more, then you have a little more ball contact with the cylinder wall, possibly raising chamber pressure before the ball hits the forcing cone.
I like the idea if you have a loaded revolver with hammer on empty chamber you could conceivibly have skinny ball slip down some in the holster vs. A fat ball wont slip.
Especially if your on hoseback.
Imagine loading your revolver then hold it muzzle down and shake it 3-4 thousand times (imagine a trotting horse)
And bump it against a table top a time or two to simulate bumping your saddle.
A fat ball stays put.
A skinny ball dumps your load.
Skinny balls handle bench shooting just fine as the demand is just have it stay put long enuf to drill some paper or poke a popcan, skinny balls dont take much riding in a holster and gravity to pull them down.