A little rant about those dreaded chain fire events

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midlandman, I guess that I really don't engage in "extended shoots". Usually after three or so cylinders-full, when the action starts to drag, I just break the revolver down and do a quick clean with a shop rag to remove the worst of the fouling.on the cylinder and arbor, then re-apply lube to the arbor. I mainly shoot 1860s, and I believe that the large diameter Colt-style arbor, with it's lube grooves, handles fouling better than the Remington replicas.
 
never seen a chain fire from loose fitting caps, and my friend 51 navy had very bad nipples. Some would just fall off, some could barely be put on. We pinched them. He had three chain fires though, every time from undersize balls. Number 3 finally broke the arbor. As easy as black powder is to ignite, a small spark bouncing under another cap, first under, than through the nipple, still hot enough to ignite seems hard to take. Certianly possible, even enevitable in time, but not likely. Just look how hard it is to light a flintlock. Your showering sparks directly at the flash hole, and its not enough, you need a pan. And thats not good enough either, you need a pan, with easier to light ultrafine powder. So yea, I know it CAN happen, I just consider it the least probable.
 
Flintlocks will fire with no powder in the pan. Not always, but they will. All that's needed is one spark to bounce off the pan into the flash hole. Second, a finer powder is not needed. A priming horn has never been found with original equipment [ bag and horn ]. Priming horns with 4F are a recent addition to the items we modern flintshooters carry. It just makes the lock time a mili second or two quicker.
 
The only chain fire I ever had was a couple of weeks ago. Must have been tired at the end of the day as I loaded up the Uberti 51 Navy with powder, wad, capped it, then....no ball! On the first hammer drop all five chambers went off with a bright flash! Couldn't believe I did that as I am a deliberate loader and was not rushing. So, that was my first, and hopefully last, chain fire in almost 30 years of cap & ball shooting. By the way, in this case none of the other caps (Remington # 10s ) ignited.
 
This is what "Colonel" Samuel Colt said in his paper, about chain fires, at his lecture before the London Institution of Civil Engineers, 25 Nov 1851

Fig 11, plate 1, represents a firearm made by the author, in 1836, to rotate and fire by the continued action of the lever, or by the use of a trigger.

The arms so constructed, consisting of a large number of pieces, and assemble in a complicated manner, were to found to possess many practical disadvantages, arising chiefly from the wish of the Author to construct compact and good looking weapons. His original experiments all been made on the skeleton arms, solely with a view to utility, and in them there was not the liability of premature explosion, from the escape of fire at the mouth of the chamber, or by inter-communication of the ignited detonating camps, but when he enclosed the rear, and the mouths of the rotating chambers, the fire, being confined beneath the shield and the cap, was communicated successfully to the percussion caps, and in front was conveyed into the chambers, so that premature and simultaneous explosion of the charges necessarily took place.


In consequence of these premature explosions it became necessary to remove the shield, from over the base of the chambers, and to introduce partitions, between the nipples, or cones, to prevent the fire from spreading to and exploding the adjoining caps; but this only partially accomplished the object There still remained risk of explosion from the spreading of the fire laterally between the base of the barrel and the face of the chamber. To meet this danger, the metal plate which was attached to the barrel, and projected over the chambers, was removed; this obviated to a certain extent, but did not altogether prevent the simultaneous explosion of the charges for during a trial of the arm, by order of the American Government, an accident occurred, from the simultaneous explosion of two chambers, which induced the Author, after much reflection to give a slight chamfer, or bevel to the orifice of each chamber, so as to deflect, or throw off at an outward angle, the fire which expanded laterally across their mouths. The reason for this alteration was, that when the lateral fire met the rectangular edge of the orifice of the chambers, the angle of incidence being equal to the angle of reflection, the fire was conducted downwards, or inwards to the charge’ but when the flame struck the chamfered edge, it was directed outward away from the charge. Unimportant as this alteration may appear, it has proved so effectual, that if loose powder is placed over the charge, in the adjoining chambers, it is not now ignited when the pistol is discharged. These and other improvements have brought the fire-arm to its present safe and effective condition and the Author believes, that no causality can occur, nor that more than on charge can be fired at one time, if the metal is sound and the arm is properly handled.
 
I had my ASM Walker chain fire several times. It also blew 2 nipples out. I think it was from poorly fitted threads. I drilled and tapped it for 1/4 28 threads and installed Thompson Center hot shot nipples and problems went away. Haven't had a chain fire since.
 
I still maintain that the majority of chain fires in percussion revolvers originate at the nipple end of the cylinder. Read Sam'l Colt's description of his efforts to eliminate multiple discharges posted above. He references that fact that his early prototypes were so constructed that the nipple area as well as the face of the cylinders were enclosed, or shielded in other words. This tended to confine and direct the flash on both ends of the chamber being fired into this enclosed space and thereby communicating it to the adjacent chambers. By removing this shielding, and introducing a barrier between the caps (emphasis mine) he felt that he eliminated chain fires.

Note also that reports from modern shooters tends to show that loose fitting caps that fall off of the nipples do not seem to be the culprit. Even though the adjacent nipple to the chamber being fired is exposed to the flash, the flash does not tend to carry down the nipple and through the tiny flash hole to produce a chain fire. I think that this is due to the fact that the incandescent gasses are not at any real pressure - being exposed to the ambient atmosphere.

However, pinching a poorly fitting cap so as to retain it on the nipple may, depending on the amount of "oval shaping" of the cap that is done, may very well create channels between the nipple body and the skirt of the cap that this incandescent gas may travel through and ignite the very volatile priming compound of the adjacent cap. This inadvertently-ignited cap then directs its own flash down through the nipple and through the flash hole, just as designed, to fire that chamber out of order.

I am not saying that this is the case in 100% of chain fires. I accept that chain fires may also occur due to spilled powder at the chamber mouths, undersized balls, cylinder moving sharply back upon recoil causing caps to impact the recoil shield and set them off, etc. But I do strongly believe that the vast majority of chain fires are due to poorly fitting caps.
 
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One other thing - I have changed the nipples on my 1860 replicas to the TRESO nipples. I just checked with one of the popular on-line vendors and found the cost of 6 TRESO nipples to be $32.00. I also checked with a vendor of percussion revolvers and found his cost of 6 replacement Pietta nipples to be $10.00. Note that the cost of the Pietta nipples includes their shipping cost from Italy, as well as overhead for customs processing, etc. in that $10.00 cost. I expect that the $22.00 extra cost for the TRESOs over the Piettas may reflect more precise machining.

Comparing the photos of the TRESO and the Pietta nipples, it looks like the Pietta nipple body is much more steeply tapered, while the TRESO nipples evidence little if any taper. This means that to apply a cap to the Pietta nipple one must press the cap down hard enough to fully seat the cap, expanding the cap skirt against the tper, otherwise there is a space between the "anvil" end of the nipple and the priming compound which may require a second hammer blow to set the cap off. Also, if the cap does not fully seat, then it may stand proud of the rear of the cylinder enough that impact against the recoil shield may become an issue.

You pays your money and takes your chances, but I feel that my money is well spent on swapping out the factory nipples for TRESOs. (I am not specifically recommending TRESO nipples over all others, but I have no experience with any other aftermarket cap manufacturers. Perhaps it's time for those who have tried other brands to chime in.)
 
Next post....Not my photo....and not a chainfire....just shows that there's a lot going on when you shoot percussion revolvers.
 
Concur that chainfires are not from the front of the cylinder. First, most shooters use grease. Others use wads. Almost everyone uses a .001 oversized ball that when compressed into the cylinder, leaves a ring of lead.
 
I don't think you can just compare photos of two different nipples and determine how the caps fit and if you need to push hard or squeeze a cap. If the tapper on the Pieta nipple matches the height of a cap so when it's fully seated the top of the nipple is also touching means everything is right. A hard or easy push means the cap will slide down a bit farther.This is what I'd want more so than no tapper. It would seem you'd have a little more lee way fitting the cap tight. What's going to keep the cap on with no tapper ? Any difference in diameters of caps or nipples mean things aren't going to fit or fit sloppy if there is no tapper.
 
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After awhile, using caps from the same manufacturer and from other manufacturers, different productions dates and different lots you come to the realization that there is broad inconsistency in the percussion cap industry. Likewise, you find that nipples can vary in side and shape. When someones tells you that you need to use a Remington this or a Winchester that in this size or another size always take it with a grain of salt. Buying different brands and sizes and trying them out is the only way to find out what works best for your situation.
 
Clembert is right, I have used both Remington and CCI caps with no problems with either. The Remington caps fit my stuff better. Find what works best for what you have and stick with it.
 
Just re read that earlier comment on lighting off a rocklock, I used to use 4f powder for the pan, then started using what was in my horn and have never looked back. I think it works better than the fine powder. That whoosh bang thing went to just bang. A well tuned lock is the real key. Also touch hole placement. I have shot many times with no misfiring or hang fires.
 
I know I was off subject with that last post. Couldn't help myself. Have to agree that proper fitting caps on the right size nipples cuts the chain fire possibilities way down. Never had one on my Rugers. Just the Walker and it's fixed.
 
First off, I agree that properly fitting caps are important. That being said, when I first started shooting black powder revolvers (I think I was about 15) I had several chain fires. I then read up in what was available at the time and started putting a bit of Crisco over the end of the bullets. At that point I had no more chain fires.

For me to trust the cap theory I should have experienced, essentially, no change. However, I did experience a change.
 
Very true, Post hoc ergo propter hoc is neither sound as evidence nor argument. But …
Sam Colt seemed to have thought that chains are most likely to come from the cylinder face and not from the nipple end of the cylinder.

colt adv camfer illistration chambers.PNG


Knowledgeable shooters of my acquaintance have tried to induce a chain by shooting rounds with adjacent chambers charged but uncapped. I have tried this, too. We got no chain fires.

It’s true though that without a cap covering the cone there is an open channel to the powder and it’s all exposed to flash and hot gas, so a chain fire is fully possible, but not likely. I am of The School that cook offs are caused from the front and a lack of sealant (whether by lube, wad, tight fitting ball or all of those).
 
...but when he enclosed the rear, and the mouths of the rotating chambers, the fire, being confined beneath the shield and the cap, was communicated successfully to the percussion caps, and in front was conveyed into the chambers, so that premature and simultaneous explosion of the charges necessarily took place...
Post #30, by member Slamfire, emphasis mine.

Seems that Mr. Colt also believed that chainfires happened from both ends, not only from the front...
 
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