Smokeless loads in Ballistite or Late blackpowder-era cartridge guns?

sleepysquirrel2 · Apr 29, 2021

I recently picked up an old european Bodeo 1889 revolver.
These guns were chambered in the obsolete 10.4 Italian cartridge, and modern ammo is impossible to find (fiocchi made a batch a few years ago, but that's it).

When these guns were first made in 1889, they shot a 10.4 Black Powder cartridge similar to the 44 russian. Then in 1890, they switched over to Ballistite -- and from then on, they were issued with and shot smokeless into WW1 and WW2.

Does anyone know what modern smokeless is safest to use in these old blackpowder/smokeless transitional guns? I've heard two camps

1) Load it lightly with old, fast powders like Bullseye, Unique or Clays, and download so the velocity is slower than original. These powders were the oldest smokeless powders, so they best match original pressure curves.

2) Load it with slower powders like Blue Dot, 2400 or IMR 4759, since these slower powders will not reach the same peak pressures as black powder. Don't use the fast powders like Bullseye or Trailboss since they produce a pressure "spike" that is much faster than BP

The "Slow rifle powder" camp I've read about from folks over at the Leverguns forum.

http://levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?p=97864
https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=7793
https://levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=27410

And the "fast powder" camp I've read about from folks over at the Smith and Wesson forums.

I've played with both combinations of these on quickload, and it seems they can both produce similar velocities with safe maximum pressures. Though the faster powders obviously reach it slightly faster.

What powder best approximates early smokeless powders like Ballistite?

GeoDudeFlorida · Apr 29, 2021

sleepysquirrel2 said:
I recently picked up an old european Bodeo 1889 revolver.
These guns were chambered in the obsolete 10.4 Italian cartridge, and modern ammo is impossible to find (fiocchi made a batch a few years ago, but that's it).

When these guns were first made in 1889, they shot a 10.4 Black Powder cartridge similar to the 44 russian. Then in 1890, they switched over to Ballistite -- and from then on, they were issued with and shot smokeless into WW1 and WW2.

Does anyone know what modern smokeless is safest to use in these old blackpowder/smokeless transitional guns? I've heard two camps

1) Load it lightly with old, fast powders like Bullseye, Unique or Clays, and download so the velocity is slower than original. These powders were the oldest smokeless powders, so they best match original pressure curves.

2) Load it with slower powders like Blue Dot, 2400 or IMR 4759, since these slower powders will not reach the same peak pressures as black powder. Don't use the fast powders like Bullseye or Trailboss since they produce a pressure "spike" that is much faster than BP

The "Slow rifle powder" camp I've read about from folks over at the Leverguns forum.

http://levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?p=97864
https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=7793
https://levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=27410

And the "fast powder" camp I've read about from folks over at the Smith and Wesson forums.

I've played with both combinations of these on quickload, and it seems they can both produce similar velocities with safe maximum pressures. Though the faster powders obviously reach it slightly faster.

What powder best approximates early smokeless powders like Ballistite?

I'm going to go with Bullseye and Unique based on, A) age, and B) popularity during the time those revolvers were in use.

I found some load data in a cast boolits article reprint of Ed Harris' "Tales From The Back Creek Diary" talking about loading for the BP proofed Webley Mk. I/II. Article is here. Same advice applied to an old 10.6mm German Reichsrevolver didn't work out too well for me, though. No damage but the cases stuck and accuracy was nil. Be careful with those old guns!

Red Dot and 2400 were both known at the time those two revolvers were being imported but Harris seemed to prefer Unique and Bullseye. I'd say Red Dot might also be a good fit but I never tried it or 2400.

brewer12345 · Apr 30, 2021

I'd probably use Trail Boss. It is basically a smokeless substitute for black powder and is very forgiving as long as you don't compress it. Black powder is very fast burning, so I don't think the speed of combustion is quite the issue. Very commonly used for cowboy action loads in black powder revolvers.

DocRock · Apr 30, 2021

I too would suggest TB. While it is not a direct substitute for black powder, when loaded as per instructions, (load to bullet base without compression and weigh charge - thats max - 70% of max is your starting load) it does provide a high density lower pressure load and should be suitable for the firearms you describe if in good working order.

brewer12345 · Apr 30, 2021

I suppose you could also load with black powder or a substitute.

sleepysquirrel2 · Apr 30, 2021

brewer12345 said:
I suppose you could also load with black powder or a substitute.

Ah the goal is to get away from loading with black powder, so there is less clean up. I actually find the loading process of black powder much easier (no need to weigh charges, can seat any shaped projectile). It's just the cleanup sucks because I don't want to rust up my old guns.

brewer12345 said:
I'd probably use Trail Boss. It is basically a smokeless substitute for black powder and is very forgiving as long as you don't compress it. Black powder is very fast burning, so I don't think the speed of combustion is quite the issue. Very commonly used for cowboy action loads in black powder revolvers.

DocRock said:
I too would suggest TB. While it is not a direct substitute for black powder, when loaded as per instructions, (load to bullet base without compression and weigh charge - thats max - 70% of max is your starting load) it does provide a high density lower pressure load and should be suitable for the firearms you describe if in good working order.

I always thought Trailboss was a very fast powder with a sharp pressure curve, only with bulk to make it easier to load (to avoid double charges). I was always taught it was bascially a fluffier version of Bullseye.
And IMR's and Graf's powder burn rates charts confirm this. It's ranked between Bullseye and Winchester 231; or between N310 and N320:

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf
https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf

the pressure curves when quickload seem to confirm it's in the range of faster powders too.

milsurpguy · Apr 30, 2021

Would go with unique sine it does well in black powder converts like 38spl and 44spl.
Trailboss is another good one.

GeoDudeFlorida · Apr 30, 2021

sleepysquirrel2 said:
Ah the goal is to get away from loading with black powder, so there is less clean up. I actually find the loading process of black powder much easier (no need to weigh charges, can seat any shaped projectile). It's just the cleanup sucks because I don't want to rust up my old guns.

I always thought Trailboss was a very fast powder with a sharp pressure curve, only with bulk to make it easier to load (to avoid double charges). I was always taught it was bascially a fluffier version of Bullseye.
And IMR's and Graf's powder burn rates charts confirm this. It's ranked between Bullseye and Winchester 231; or between N310 and N320:

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf
https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf

the pressure curves when quickload seem to confirm it's in the range of faster powders too.

1 cup ammonia, 2 cups rubbing alcohol and 13 cups water in a gallon bottle. In other words, Windex. Put some in a small spray bottle and spritz the barrel, action and exposed surfaces. Neutralizes the corrosive salts, cleans and won’t pool up in crevices. Driftwood posted a great write up on how to grease internals to keep the corrosive salts from ever reaching them. Sometimes black powder is just the best all around propellant.

swg1 · Apr 30, 2021

I should do some more experiments with Trail Boss someday. What I noted was "all of the pressure, but low velocities ". In my mind that makes it good for modern makes, but not at all what I want in an antique. Load manuals bear this out. Low velocities do not necessarily correlate to low pressure.

I'd choose something else.

Smokeless loads in Ballistite or Late blackpowder-era cartridge guns?

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