American 8mm Mauser really just a 30-30?

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NuclearMeltdown said:
I like those lower-powered commercial loads for target shooting. They make it so the steel buttplate doesn't lay the smackdown on your shoulder. Full-power 8mm can be unpleasant, even in heavy military rifles. Ever shoot the Turkish surplus ammo from a bench wearing just a t-shirt?:eek:
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Yep. Sitting in a lawn chair, in the desert South of Boise on a hot sunny day, ice cold drink by my side, shooting at clays sitting on a berm 100 yards away. The butt plate on the M48 is designed to hurt you, I'm pretty sure. As is the Turk ammo. It was fun, none-the-less.
 
jmr40 said:
In my experience 30-30 factory loads from a common a 20" barrel will just barely make 2000 fps with 170's in the real world. 2300, maybe with handloads and/or a 24" barrel.

No experience at all with an 8mm Mauser. But from everything I've seen and read it shouldn't be terribly far behind 30-06. Remember, the original 30-06 load was a 150 gr bullet @ 2700 fps. Modern 30-06 loads, in modern rifles, can beat that by a considerable amount. I'm sure the same is true with 8mm Mauser.
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Run a .30US/.30-06 chamber reamer into a 7.92X57mm barrel/rifle, and you can beat them both by a considerable amount.
 
Big 30-30 fan. I’ve killed plenty of deer, hogs, and a few bear with it. Great round in generally handy rifles.

I was doing load development for my Gewehr 98 sporter Friday and I’m getting a pleasant 2670 FPS with the Hornady 170 grs RN. That’s quite a bit more than anything I’ve ever seen in 30-30!
 
I have a "Persian" Mauser with the mile-long barrel. I have whipped up a stout load using the Woodleigh 220 grain bullet for it, but have not had a chance to chronograph it yet. I imagine it would kill something.

I too am a fan of the .30WCF. I have a single shot (Savage 219) with a 26" barrel which I imagine spits them out pretty good. It shoots the Hornady 165 grain BTSP really nice, and that bullet expands well over a wide velocity range, and even on cougar which is a pretty light, thin skinned animal. I've also found that most single shots won't really handle any more pressure than the Winchesters or Marlins. So I load all my .30WCF to standard velocity.
 
Thanks to all for the replies. Most appreciated. The responses inspired me to go out and test the winchester power points in 8mm 170 gr and 30-30 170 gr from various rifles. I didn't have any more Rem Coreloks in 30-30 left so that is why I used the PowerPoints. Here are the 10 shot averages:

From the Rem 700 24 inch barrel avg of 2,346fps
From the Rem 788 22 inch barrel avg of 2,133fps
From the Mossberg 464 lever 20 inch barrel avg of 2,029fps

The Winchester 170 gr power point ballistics on the box (I am assuming a 24 inch test barrel length) are 2,360fps for the 8mm mauser and 2,200fps for the 30-30.

Interesting results. I guess the increase in velocity and frontal surface area combined with more energy transfer (lower SD) of the 8mm saami spec loads over the 30-30 are enough to make a difference of what I see in the field. That is the 8mm saami spec load of the same weight is more effective on whitetails at close range (<125 yds) than the 30-30 carbine. Further it validates precisely what JimK and jmr40 have posted. I will take comments like American 8mm mauser loads are weak and no better than a 30-30 with a grain of salt. That said, the 30-30, while not a ballistic powerhouse, still gets the job done. Just not as effective as the 8mm saami.

In case anyone was curious, I also chronographed the Euro spec S&B 196gr SPCE ammo. Out of the Rem 700C I got a 10 shot avg of 2,524fps. This is about 70fps slower than what S&B claims on the box. Also, definitely more felt recoil than the Winchester PP ammo.
 
PA Revolver Guy said:
Thanks to all for the replies. Most appreciated. The responses inspired me to go out and test the winchester power points in 8mm 170 gr and 30-30 170 gr from various rifles. I didn't have any more Rem Coreloks in 30-30 left so that is why I used the PowerPoints. Here are the 10 shot averages:

From the Rem 700 24 inch barrel avg of 2,346fps
From the Rem 788 22 inch barrel avg of 2,133fps
From the Mossberg 464 lever 20 inch barrel avg of 2,029fps

The Winchester 170 gr power point ballistics on the box (I am assuming a 24 inch test barrel length) are 2,360fps for the 8mm mauser and 2,200fps for the 30-30.

Interesting results. I guess the increase in velocity and frontal surface area combined with more energy transfer (lower SD) of the 8mm saami spec loads over the 30-30 are enough to make a difference of what I see in the field. That is the 8mm saami spec load of the same weight is more effective on whitetails at close range (<125 yds) than the 30-30 carbine. Further it validates precisely what JimK and jmr40 have posted. I will take comments like American 8mm mauser loads are weak and no better than a 30-30 with a grain of salt. That said, the 30-30, while not a ballistic powerhouse, still gets the job done. Just not as effective as the 8mm saami.

In case anyone was curious, I also chronographed the Euro spec S&B 196gr SPCE ammo. Out of the Rem 700C I got a 10 shot avg of 2,524fps. This is about 70fps slower than what S&B claims on the box. Also, definitely more felt recoil than the Winchester PP ammo.
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I love that S&B 196 grs SPCE! Bought about 500 rounds from Cabela's on sale years ago and still have about 250 left. It's the go-to do my M49 Persian Mauser sporter. Only get about 2400 fps out of the short 18" barrel , but it hits hard. Took a couple of 200 lbs hogs and, on one, I was a little high in the neck and it just knocked a chunk out of the neck and snapped the spine without the bullet seemingly touching it. That would be my choice for elk in 8x57.
 
I had a friend load 196grain out to 2900FPS,(yes it hurt, yes I I was concerned about the load, no pressure signs, and he had data for it) using some cold war powder in my 21" mauser. It was definitely full power. I usually load 154 to 2700, but its a real competitor if handloaded.
 
To the best of my knowledge PPU loads 8mm Mauser to American saami spec for ammo sold in the US. They also load what they call 8x57JS closer to Euro spec(unfortunately not sold in the USA)in the same soft point bullet. I believe it is a 196 grain soft point at about 2,460fps. Much hotter than saami but still not a true representation of what the 8mm is capable of when handloaded.

IMO the PPU saami spec ammo is pretty good. It shoots well in my Rem700C and the brass is reloadable. I used it to shoot a 160lb whitetail doe two years ago on the homestead. She was a rather rotund lady. She went 20 yards and piled up. I was happy with the performance of that soft point bullet. However, the shot was just over 50 yards. I wouldn't shoot this particular ammo much past 100 yards but that is just me.

I still have a few boxes left. I may just go out and chrono 10 rounds today if I get the chance. I will post the results.

Thanks to all who have found this thread interesting and have posted and/or liked.
 
PA Revolver Guy said:
To the best of my knowledge PPU loads 8mm Mauser to American saami spec for ammo sold in the US. They also load what they call 8x57JS closer to Euro spec(unfortunately not sold in the USA)in the same soft point bullet. I believe it is a 196 grain soft point at about 2,460fps. Much hotter than saami but still not a true representation of what the 8mm is capable of when handloaded.

IMO the PPU saami spec ammo is pretty good. It shoots well in my Rem700C and the brass is reloadable. I used it to shoot a 160lb whitetail doe two years ago on the homestead. She was a rather rotund lady. She went 20 yards and piled up. I was happy with the performance of that soft point bullet. However, the shot was just over 50 yards. I wouldn't shoot this particular ammo much past 100 yards but that is just me.

I still have a few boxes left. I may just go out and chrono 10 rounds today if I get the chance. I will post the results.

Thanks to all who have found this thread interesting and have posted and/or liked.
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Not knockin' PPU.

Like their ammo a lot, even the pokey 6.5x55mm/139 gr..




GR
 
RE: SAAMI (USA) vs. CIP (Europe)

OK, this is a really tangental to the subject, but so interesting that I hope others will find it as fascinating as I did ...

About 15 minutes into this video, the author visits a CIP proof facility in Hungary to have his antique rifle checked for safety. Even though this is a muzzle loader, the process shows how they do things like this in Europe:



CIP often lists different ammo specs from SAAMI. Not sure one is better than the other, but they are different agencies that can have somewhat different approaches to the same problems.

I wish CIP would include dimensions in Imperial units as well as Metric -- converting is a pain!
 
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8x57jrs-200-yds-S.jpg

Loaded to 2,550 fps, out of the above rifle...

I would still take a 30-06 loaded with --------> 200NP's, over the above for big bears because it's proven "to me" to be a better choice on bigger BIG game.

DM
 
I've been impressed by the accuracy of my drilling and combination gun in that chambering. Doubly impressed that three different brands of ammo all shot to the sights in both as well.

DM~ said:
View attachment 997783

Loaded to 2,550 fps, out of the above rifle...

I would still take a 30-06 loaded with --------> 200NP's, over the above for big bears because it's proven "to me" to be a better choice on bigger BIG game.

DM
Click to expand...
 
swg1 said:
I've been impressed by the accuracy of my drilling and combination gun in that chambering. Doubly impressed that three different brands of ammo all shot to the sights in both as well.
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NO complaints from me on my drilling,

100-Yard-Target.jpg

OR my combo gun either,

412-Scope-Check-Target.jpg

DM
 
DocRock said:
I was doing load development for my Gewehr 98 sporter Friday and I’m getting a pleasant 2670 FPS with the Hornady 170 grs RN. That’s quite a bit more than anything I’ve ever seen in 30-30!
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Off the top of my head, that is somewhere where speer puts the 170 hot core with imr 4064. This 2300 fps question rattled me for a little while when I was picking up components to load the caliber.

Something that hasn't been covered, if it was my bad, is that the the majority of 323 bullets are designed for faster velocities out of 8mm Rem Mag, 325 wsm, etc.... I contacted swift, nosler, and a couple others about it and this is what I was told. This was another hang up I had.

In fairness, a 220 gn A frame is not gonna perform, but for that muley within a certain distance, might as well be a Mack truck.
 
I hit a deer at just over 350 with a 170 speer flat base, that was a light load for my 98. That gun get loaded lighter to not crack the very petite stock. Deer dropped drt bullet passed through about a inch hole in the ribs.
 
The 200NP WILL expand some at lower velocity, it's another reason I like it so much. FAST expansion, DEEP penetration!

I shot a coyote at something over 300 yards through the ribs with one at a MV 2,550 fps, and there was still "some" expansion of the bullet, at that long range.

The 200NP's are the best all around 8mm bullet I've ever tested...

DM
 
8mm Mauser lawyer-loads were the reason I started handloading. My hunting load is a 200NP @ 2550 out of my dad's M44 Spanish mauser. (Previously bubba'd so I put a scope on it.) Shoots 1.5" @ 100 yards. Haven't shot a deer with it yet, though. I also load Nosler HPBT at about the same velocity. I also load on the other side of the Rem/Win/Fed loads with 150gr Sierra pills with either Red Dot or Trail Boss. My grandkids and nieces and nephews (and a few of my wimpier siblings and in-laws) really like shooting those. Barely more recoil than a 22 LR but they get to shoot the "big guns".

I have a 30/30 and it's one of my favorite guns to shoot, but I knew that the 8mm could do sooo much more.


Ugly Sauce said:
Run a .30US/.30-06 chamber reamer into a 7.92X57mm barrel/rifle, and you can beat them both by a considerable amount.
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I've seriously thought about that one, a lot.

Garandimal said:
Well...

PPU - is loadin' 8mm MAUSER w/ a 196 gr. SP at 2180 fps/MV.

Yikes!

Worse than 6.5x55mm.
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Now if they would only export their loads marked "8x57IS" to the US, that would be awesome. Same 196gr SP but at 2460 fps. I've heard rumor that it does show up occasionally in the US.

Matt
 
DM~ said:
The 200NP WILL expand some at lower velocity, it's another reason I like

The 200NP's are the best all around 8mm bullet I've ever tested...

DM
Click to expand...

I might give em a try. Just ran hot cores through it because its just a fun paper puncher at the moment. If I draw this year, gonna try to use it
 
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