8MM vs 30 caliber

[Nom de Forum]

Originally Posted by denton
I've always felt that the 8x57 was just a bit short on case capacity in proportion to its bore. An 8mm bore seems to me to be most at home with 200-225 grain bullets, and that's a bit much mass for the capacity of the 8x57.
The 30-06 and the 7x57 seem to me to be a bit more nicely balanced than the 8x57.
That said, I have an 8x57 that shoots well, and it's a good rifle and good cartridge.

I've shot a lot of big game with both, and for the "bigger" big game, you are right, the 8x57 could use a bit more velocity with the heavy bullets.

A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's is a better bigger big game cartridge/bullet than the 8x57 loaded with 200NP's. It's all about the little bit better SD and velocity of the 30 cal. bullet...

For deer/blk. bear, the 8mm really does a great job though.

DM

I have never shot big game with an 8x57. I now don't doubt you are right about the .30-06 being better. When I posted I was thinking with bullets greater than 220 grains the 8mm might have an edge on the '06. After reading in denton's post the remark about case capacity I was inspired to pull out my various reloading manuals. It appears that even over 220 grains the the velocities are close so the superior sectional density of the .30-06 beats the 8mm.

denton's and your post are one of the reasons I like THR so much. I find out where I am in error and make a mental correction.

Art Eatman was certainly right - "Nothing wrong with the 8x57, but it won't do anything more for a hunter than an '06 will do."

 

[LAGS]

@ Denton
I fully agree with you on the lacking of case capacity of the 8x57 with the heavier bullets.
That is why I love the 8mm-06.
But again, at best, it is only Marginally better than the 30-06 with the heavier bullets, and only because of the added SD.
But then I am a big fan of the 35 Whelen too for the same reason.
But the numbers prove out the 06 as the better and most prefered caliber in the side by side comparrison of standard cartridges.
But if you went to Europe or Africa where the 8mm is popular, I bet most shooters would knock you over to get their hands on an 30-06.

 

[Dr.Rob]

They are about even in power. In military ball ammo, seems like more 8mm is loaded heavier (196-200 gr) and a tad slower say 2500 fps vs. .30-06 which ran more like 150gr at 2700+fps. Both performed very well.

You can load either up or down with the variety of hand loading options.. but sine 30 cal is a US military caliber and zillions of rifles were sold here in that caliber, you have more choices loading in 30 cal.

 

[Nom de Forum]

@ Denton
I fully agree with you on the lacking of case capacity of the 8x57 with the heavier bullets.
That is why I love the 8mm-06.
But again, at best, it is only Marginally better than the 30-06 with the heavier bullets, and only because of the added SD.
But then I am a big fan of the 35 Whelen too for the same reason.
But the numbers prove out the 06 as the better and most prefered caliber in the side by side comparrison of standard cartridges.
But if you went to Europe or Africa where the 8mm is popular, I bet most shooters would knock you over to get their hands on an 30-06.

How heavy a bullet are you loading in your 8mm-06?

"But again, at best, it is only Marginally better than the 30-06 with the heavier bullets, and only because of the added SD."

Are you saying the bullets from your 8mm-06 have better sectional density? I have to wonder because a 220-250 .308 bullet has better sectional density than the same weight .323 bullet. The heaviest bullets I found in my manuals for loading in these two cartridges is 250 grains.

 

[itsa pain]

I've always felt that the 8x57 was just a bit short on case capacity in proportion to its bore. An 8mm bore seems to me to be most at home with 200-225 grain bullets, and that's a bit much mass for the capacity of the 8x57.

The 30-06 and the 7x57 seem to me to be a bit more nicely balanced than the 8x57.

That said, I have an 8x57 that shoots well, and it's a good rifle and good cartridge.

The 8mm suffers from lack of decent bullets. I say the best bore size for the 06 case is the 338-06 which pushes a 185 grain bullet 3000 fps 200 grain at 2900fps 225 grain at 2700 fps and 250 grain at 2600 that is serious power from the 06 class and negates the need for most magnums

 

[CraigC]

"Nothing wrong with the XXX, but it won't do anything more for a hunter than an YYY will do."

You can have that argument all day long with thousands of possibilities. If it were all about practicality and whatever is the easiest thing to use, we'd probably all have a .22LR, a .30-06, a 12ga and little else.

 

[Gordon]

Well actually during the 30-06 and 8mmx57 development just prior to WW1 there was a lot of interior and exterior ballistic research done by Germany and the US. The Germans saw the larger 8mm bullet base allowed a favorable expansion ratio to allow smaller case of the 8x57 to function in the desired range of 2500fps with the 196 grain Projectile for very long range uses..The US found the 30-06 with the smaller and lighter bullet at significantly higher velocity to solve some field use problems with flatter to 600 yard trajectories and lessened recoil and terminal performance. AND the US and allies wanted to stick with the .30 (before WW1) and the Germans and Turks ect. with the 8mm because of rifling infastructures and other logistics.
Now practically in the hunting field use; my family have used both 8x57 and 30-06 hunting weapons since the end of WW2. My uncle always killed his deer and moose with RWS ammo of 196 grains with this 8x57 with no complaints! He said the 8mm hit harder than the 30-06

Others in the family used 8mm drillings with good results.
But in 1958 or 59 the same uncle bought this 30-06 Mannlicher Schoenaer and using 220 grain ammo proclaimed it superior in killing power to the 8mm. !

 

[Ar180shooter]

Until the end of WWII Germany used an 8MM round while the U.S., the U.K., and Russia (USSR) used a 30 caliber round. From what I understand the rounds weighed about the same, so was there any difference in the performance of the 8MM and the 30 caliber rounds?

While there are numerous 30 caliber hunting rounds, I'm not aware of any 8MM hunting rounds other than the 8MM Mauser and the 8MM magnum. Is this just due to tradition or does the 30 caliber offer an advantage?

There are many, many military and hunting rounds in 8mm. Most of them are more popular in Europe, but the most well known ones of American origin include the .32 Winchester Special, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Federal (8.6mm) and .325 WSM. Other popular hunting rounds in Europe include the 8x64mm S, 8x65mm RS, 8x68mm S. This of course doesn't include the 8x57 IS and its rimmed counterpart the 8x57 IRS, or the multitude of 8mm service rounds used by various European powers around the end of the 19th century until the end of WWII.

 

[morcey2]

I have a bunch of rifles in 8x57, 30-06, and 7.62x54R. (303 British being the other big 30-cal WWI chambering that I don't happen to have.) 30-06 has a slight edge in everyday shooting, but not by a whole lot. There isn't enough of a difference to say that one is inherently superior to the other (8x57 v. 30-06 specifically.)

A 200 gr Nosler Partition @ 2600 fps from an 8x57 mauser works very well for everything up to Elk out to about 300 yards. So does a 180 gr partition from a 30-06. About the same SD with a slight velocity edge going to the 30-06.

As to the original question of why so many different 30-cal hunting cartridges and so few 8mm? After the war, 30 caliber bullets were easy to get so 30 caliber wildcats and domestics were the norm. Being the norm, 30 caliber bullet development was driven by the new cartridges which, in turn, fed even more cartridge development. Not so with the 8mm. That, and the domestic (fed/win/rem) loadings of 8mm mauser ammo put it more in the class with the 30-30 instead of the 30-06 where it should have been and I know many people who still use that as the basis for judging the 8x57 as a poor performer.

That said, what rifle do I usually pick up for general purpose stuff? Either a 7x57 or 257 Bob.

Matt

 

[DM~]

When you go over 200 grain bullets in the 30-06, you start having the problem of not enough case capacity to use the extra bullet weight.

Just because a bullet is heavier, it doesn't mean it will work better as a hunting bullet. It's really about having adequate bullet weight with a proper designed bullet!

The .308" 200NP works perfectly in an 06 and is adequate for the biggest big game in NA, at least it has been in my hands. In my opinion, they out perform the 220's...

I haven't found the 8x57 adequate for the biggest big game with the 200NP's and that's the BEST, heaviest hunting bullet the 57mm case can drive at what I consider "fast enough"...

The NP's are EXTREMELY good hunting bullets and driving the 8mm 200NP faster, DOES give more "needed" penetration for the biggest big game.

DM

 

[boom boom]

IMHO,
As someone who collects milsurp bolt actions and some semi-autos, most of the 30 calibers used in war (leaving aside the 7.92 Kurz which I had no experience with or the .30 Carbine) work whether your target is military personnel or deer/elk, etc. Quality factory cartridges with superior bullets and handloading to a rifle's particular fancies with the right bullet/powder combination are more to the point. The quality and confidence level of the shooter also makes quite a difference. There is a reason that a majority of the powers used .30 caliber weapons--they work.

As someone who qualified in service with the M-16 A1 (dating myself), I can understand why the military chose it--it resembles a long range M1 Carbine with little recoil but a bit longer range. Easier on logistics, training, etc. If I recall right, the original reason for the M-16 was the Air Force's desire to replace their M1 Carbines and then McNamara wanted services to use the same weapon. Nice weapon along with the AK-47, SKS, Tavor, etc. to use with select fire and decent firepower. But, you are still giving up something regarding firepower and range versus the old .30 calibers.

 

[Nom de Forum]

When you go over 200 grain bullets in the 30-06, you start having the problem of not enough case capacity to use the extra bullet weight.

Just because a bullet is heavier, it doesn't mean it will work better as a hunting bullet. It's really about having adequate bullet weight with a proper designed bullet!

The .308" 200NP works perfectly in an 06 and is adequate for the biggest big game in NA, at least it has been in my hands. In my opinion, they out perform the 220's...

I haven't found the 8x57 adequate for the biggest big game with the 200NP's and that's the BEST, heaviest hunting bullet the 57mm case can drive at what I consider "fast enough"...

The NP's are EXTREMELY good hunting bullets and driving the 8mm 200NP faster, DOES give more "needed" penetration for the biggest big game.

DM

To some get an idea of how historically the 30-06 and 8x57 compare with heavy bullets I took a look at some loads for 200-250 grain bullets from manuals stretching over a period of 30 years. I consulted Sierra, Nosler, A-Square, and to really shake things up Barnes. The Nosler manual has the .30-06 and 8x57 using 200 grain Partitions at very similar velocities. What I am seeing is that the cartridges have (average barrel length for velocity measurement is 24”) very little variation in fps between the two and which is faster also varies depending on the source. I have to conclude that even with 250 grain bullets taking up a great amount of case space, the .30-06 can still generate enough velocity for them and is still a superior game round because of higher sectional density. I was surprised the .30-06 was able to use the 220-250 bullets and not lose out to the 8x57. I was not as familiar with .323 bullets as I thought because I expected to find some over 250 grain bullet loadings for the 8x57 that would be superior to the .30-06. Granted bullet weight and sectional density are not the only factors in making a bullet more effective but it is a good start. There are some very good 180 grain .30-06 loads that people swear are more than adequate for anything you would hunt with a .30-06.

 

[DM~]

EXCEPT, you left out bullet "construction", and how it makes all the difference in what it does when it hits an animal. You just aren't going to get THAT out of an reloading manual....

That's the REAL and biggest difference, in most of these similar diameter bullets...

DM

 

[tahoe2]

for all practical hunting purposes, I think they are pretty even. I have killed with the 8mm mauser and witnessed kills with the 06, same results with 180 grn bullets and both just happen to be Nosler Ballistic tips. Pinky sized hole in; and a .50 cent pc or Silver dollar sized out hole, and the deer were DRT. I haven't taken an Elk with the 8mm yet, but the 06 downed the Elk after about 20 steps. I can't imagine the 8mm would be any different. The Elk shot used a 180 partition in the 06, but 200 grns are all that's available in the 8mm. I'm happy with my 8mm and my buddy likes his 06.

 

[Nom de Forum]

EXCEPT, you left out bullet "construction", and how it makes all the difference in what it does when it hits an animal. You just aren't going to get THAT out of an reloading manual....

That's the REAL and biggest difference, in most of these similar diameter bullets...

DM

Well yes I did, but only because I don't think there is that much difference in the construction of a 200 grain .308 Nosler Partition and a 200 grain .323 Nosler Partition to be relevant if they are striking the game at nearly the same velocity. Same with the bullets of same weight from Sierra, etc. that only differed in caliber. We are after all discussing bullets that only differ by 15 thousands of an inch in diameter.

 

[RentaCop]

To some get an idea of how historically the 30-06 and 8x57 compare with heavy bullets I took a look at some loads for 200-250 grain bullets from manuals stretching over a period of 30 years. I consulted Sierra, Nosler, A-Square, and to really shake things up Barnes. The Nosler manual has the .30-06 and 8x57 using 200 grain Partitions at very similar velocities. What I am seeing is that the cartridges have (average barrel length for velocity measurement is 24”) very little variation in fps between the two and which is faster also varies depending on the source. I have to conclude that even with 250 grain bullets taking up a great amount of case space, the .30-06 can still generate enough velocity for them and is still a superior game round because of higher sectional density. I was surprised the .30-06 was able to use the 220-250 bullets and not lose out to the 8x57. I was not as familiar with .323 bullets as I thought because I expected to find some over 250 grain bullet loadings for the 8x57 that would be superior to the .30-06. Granted bullet weight and sectional density are not the only factors in making a bullet more effective but it is a good start. There are some very good 180 grain .30-06 loads that people swear are more than adequate for anything you would hunt with a .30-06.

Nosler uses pixie dust or crack with their powder to get their mythical velocity with their IMR 4350 data. I have never attained anything close to their (2698fps) velocity in five 8x57 rifles with 4350. This includes two modern actions in 8x57 at present. Bad comparison with the 30-06. The 06 has more capacity than the 8x57 and that is a fact. An 06 will drive the same weight bullet faster. For the 8x57 to equal the 06 takes pressure and running it on the edge. I am perfectly fine running the 8mm to 2450-2500 with 200 grainer, 2750 with 175 grainer, and 2850-2900 with 150 grainer.

Compare the '06 with an 8mm-06, now you have a good comparison.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Nosler uses pixie dust or crack with their powder to get their mythical velocity with their IMR 4350 data. I have never attained anything close to their (2698fps) velocity in five 8x57 rifles with 4350. This includes two modern actions in 8x57 at present. Bad comparison with the 30-06. The 06 has more capacity than the 8x57 and that is a fact. An 06 will drive the same weight bullet faster. For the 8x57 to equal the 06 takes pressure and running it on the edge. I am perfectly fine running the 8mm to 2450-2500 with 200 grainer, 2750 with 175 grainer, and 2850-2900 with 150 grainer.

Compare the '06 with an 8mm-06, now you have a good comparison.

Perhaps Nosler does use magic pixie dust, but then it appears so does Sierra and others. The .30-06 does indeed have more case capacity but it is only 4.9 grains of H2O more. Long and heavy .308 bullets will drink that up fast. Nosler notes that the 4350 load for the 200gr 8mm is a 104% compressed load. Could that be the magic you are not using? What are you getting with 220 to 250 grain bullets in the 8mm?

 

[RentaCop]

The .30-06 does indeed have more case capacity but it is only 4.9 grains of H2O more.

Direct from Nosler data.

30-06/200/3.32 oal 59.4grains H2O
8x57/200/3.03 oal 51.5 grains H2O

Perhaps Nosler does use magic pixie dust, but then it appears so does Sierra and others. Long and heavy .308 bullets will drink that up fast.

52 grains a'int going to get you to 2698fps in a 24" barrel. Been there, tried and never reached even close in five rifles. It is always the combo I work up first in a 8x57mm rifle. Just to remind myself that data combo is BS and always has been.

Nosler #3 52 grains, 104%, 2700 fps.......bs
Nosler #4 52 grains, 101%, 2698 fps.......bs
Nosler (online), 52 grains, 107%, 3.03 OAL, 2698.....bs

Quickload
200 grain Partition
3.03 OAL
63grains H2O
54.8 grains
IMR 4350
111.5% compressed
2696 fps
63,700 psi

Nosler's data is b.s. with that combo. They even have the 8mm-06 topping out at 2628fps, slower than their 8x57mm data, which of course is the mythical 2698fps both with IMR4350. (BS). I have loaded for an 8mm-06 and 2650 is easily attainable.

I even doubt the IMR 4064 load data/velocity with the 200 Part.

Nosler notes that the 4350 load for the 200gr 8mm is a 104% compressed load. Could that be the magic you are not using?

Nope. Even at 51 grains with the 200gr Accubond (longer than the Partition) at that charge is compressed.

What are you getting with 220 to 250 grain bullets in the 8mm?

From the Woodleigh site

30/06
Woodleigh 30/06 .308” 240gr PP SN #65G

H4350 48gr 2250 fps
H4831SC 54gr 2350fps


8x 57IS
Woodleigh 8mm .323” 250gr RN SN #64D

H4350 50gr 2254fps

I don't have any need for a 220 or 250. The 200grain Part does just fine as my heavy. Of course Swift is putting out a 190 grain Scirocco II in July or so. On the lighter side Hornady has put out the 170gr SST, which will occupy my time for the next couple of range trips. Back it with Pro-2000MR and it should do right fine.

 

[Nom de Forum]

RentaCop,

Thanks for sharing your data and experience to make it possible to really scrutinize the 8x57. You definitely appear to know what you are doing and it confirms that as with other cartridges the reloading manuals can have some "interesting" load data. Too bad I don't live in Bend anymore, I could drop by and make a pen and ink correction using your data before the next edition goes to press.

Thanks again for education.

 

[itsa pain]

Direct from Nosler data.

30-06/200/3.32 oal 59.4grains H2O
8x57/200/3.03 oal 51.5 grains H2O









52 grains a'int going to get you to 2698fps in a 24" barrel. Been there, tried and never reached even close in five rifles. It is always the combo I work up first in a 8x57mm rifle. Just to remind myself that data combo is BS and always has been.

Nosler #3 52 grains, 104%, 2700 fps.......bs
Nosler #4 52 grains, 101%, 2698 fps.......bs
Nosler (online), 52 grains, 107%, 3.03 OAL, 2698.....bs

Quickload
200 grain Partition
3.03 OAL
63grains H2O
54.8 grains
IMR 4350
111.5% compressed
2696 fps
63,700 psi

Nosler's data is b.s. with that combo. They even have the 8mm-06 topping out at 2628fps, slower than their 8x57mm data, which of course is the mythical 2698fps both with IMR4350. (BS). I have loaded for an 8mm-06 and 2650 is easily attainable.

I even doubt the IMR 4064 load data/velocity with the 200 Part.





Nope. Even at 51 grains with the 200gr Accubond (longer than the Partition) at that charge is compressed.





From the Woodleigh site

I don't have any need for a 220 or 250. The 200grain Part does just fine as my heavy. Of course Swift is putting out a 190 grain Scirocco II in July or so. On the lighter side Hornady has put out the 170gr SST, which will occupy my time for the next couple of range trips. Back it with Pro-2000MR and it should do right fine.

I know that this is about 06 vs 57 but after all that the 338-06 out does both of them. That does not matter to me but it seems like it would to you

 

[DM~]

Well yes I did, but only because I don't think there is that much difference in the construction of a 200 grain .308 Nosler Partition and a 200 grain .323 Nosler Partition to be relevant if they are striking the game at nearly the same velocity. Same with the bullets of same weight from Sierra, etc. that only differed in caliber. We are after all discussing bullets that only differ by 15 thousands of an inch in diameter.

AND, I DO think there's a difference between them. They may look alike, but they aren't the same!

When I was designing/building bullets, I learned that little things can and do make a big difference... You just can't use blanket statements to compare them.

BTW, both are more than is needed for deer, so it "looks" like they work the same, but if you noticed, I used the term "bigger big game", that's where you start seeing differences.

DM

 

[1948CJ2A]

I use 175gr bullets in my 8x57. If I'm needing something bigger and further, I reach for my 8mm Reg Mag with 200gr Accubonds.

A similar analogy exists between my 308, 30-06, & 300 WBY. I use 150gr bullets in my 308, 165s in my 30-06, and 180+ in my 300 WBY.

More ways to justify more rifles! Not that we need any justification...

 

[RentaCop]

I use 175gr bullets in my 8x57. If I'm needing something bigger and further, I reach for my 8mm Reg Mag with 200gr Accubonds.

A similar analogy exists between my 308, 30-06, & 300 WBY. I use 150gr bullets in my 308, 165s in my 30-06, and 180+ in my 300 WBY.

More ways to justify more rifles! Not that we need any justification...

Sierra's 175 is a great bullet. We'll see how the 170 SST does in a few weeks when I make it to the range again.

 

[rdmercer]

A few years back I and my 17 year old grandson went target shooting with my dad's early 1940's Model 70 Winchester. The barrel is stamped Government 30-06. Nice pre-60s this gun is.
I had several loose rounds of what I thought was 30-06. He had fired several times at a 300 yd. target but after firing maybe the 10th round he couldn't open the bolt. I took it to a gunsmith who finally got the breech open and discovered an 8mm round had been chambered and fired. The shell casing had been fire formed in the process to fit the breech. He could see no damage to either the barrel or the breech but advised about maybe 'not doing it again". Shooting at the range again showed no change in accuracy. Thank Heavens.

 

[Palehorseman]

People often compare these two calibers the 8x57 and the 30-06 because they faced each other in the field of battle.
And to the hunter , the rifles also were comperable being the Mauser 98 and the 1903 Springfield.
The same comparrison would not be later made between the 30-06 and the 7.62x54R even though they faced each other in the Korean War.
Mostly because the Nagant Rifle was no comparrison to the Garand.
But Ballisticly in a comperable rifle the 7.62x54 in the military load was comperable to the 30-06 with lighter bullets.

But the 8mm and the '06 are about the same in the military loadings, but you can get so much more out of the '06 in hunting loadings.

And to the hunter , the rifles also were comperable being the Mauser 98 and the 1903 Springfield.

Small wonder, Springfield tried to steal the 98 Mauser design, got sued and then forced to pay Mauser royalties until the event of WW1.