2 less than max in an AR mag. Do you?

Rexster · May 19, 2021

Ten-round AR15/M4 mags: 10.

Twenty-round AR15/M4 mags: 20.

Thirty-round mags: Well, “it depends.” If I am expecting to load a rifle, when its bolt is locked-back, under training conditions, I might well load a full 30. Normally, I only use 30-round mags for training, anyway. Carry mags, in my case, are usually Twenties.

Seven-round 1911 mags: 7.

Eight-round 1911 mags: 7.

Glocks mags: Down-loaded by one or two, usually. New Glock mags, sometimes down by three, because I feel no need to conquer each mag, while loading them.

herrwalther · May 19, 2021

I always loaded 29 rounds in my 30 round AR mags during service. Still do it today out of habit.

Space Ghost · May 19, 2021

Choctaw said:
My rifle does fine with fully loaded mags. A coworker has to download by two or his mags won't seat correctly in his work rifle.

I do have a few like that, but it's because I repaired old ones with braided springs rather than regular springs. These can only take 28... but they get all 28. I also don't use them as "duty" mags. These are for blasting, and training.

FL-NC · May 19, 2021

daniel craig said:
Is that the idea behind teaching slapping the mag in after insertion?

Something else that takes additional time, possibly in a situation where additional time just isn't there.

daniel craig said:
Interestingly enough, when we had access to tracer rounds we’d load the third mag (third from the bottom) as a tracer so we knew to change out before fully running out.

That is also a good method that I used my entire career.

trackskippy said:
dont think the 30 round AR mags are functionally a problem (as far as the gun shooting) with 30 rounds in them, the problem seems to pop up when you try and insert a fully loaded mag into a gun with a closed bolt. You usually "can" get the mag into the gun, but it often does usually require a bit of force to make sure that it will lock securely in place. If you arent paying attention its easy to not use enough force for a solid lock up, and you'll get a mag falling out, or one that wont strip a round and the mag falls out.
This is correct. This "bit of force" can take a "bit of time" that you may not have.

I would say technically, the mag isn't bad, and its probably more a user error sort of thing, but by downloading a couple of rounds, the reliability goes up, and the error level seems to drop.

This is exactly why it was a universal procedure where I worked- sacrifice 1 bang to help insure you get 29 bangs. Also, just because YOU loaded them doesn't always mean they are going in YOUR weapon and being used by YOU. Things happen. When I was injured and out of the fight, a team mate took all the mags off my kit because he was running low and I had no use for them, since I had a large hole in my right forearm and an injured left eye- I wasn't going to be effective firing anything, and if I had tried I would have probably been hit a 3rd or 4th time.

Riomouse911 said:
I do give mags a slight tug downward after seating rather than a slap to the bottom of the mag. If I didn’t fully seat the new mag it will pull out and I can re-seat it rather than have it fall out while running or shooting.

That is a lot of stuff going on while you may be engaged in a fight. In my experience, if the fight requires a reload, it is a significant fight, and probably not over.

Riomouse911 · May 19, 2021

That’s why I give it a quick tug. That fraction of a second tells me whether it’s seated properly or not

.

Stay safe.

Charlie98 · May 19, 2021

NIGHTLORD40K said:
Honestly, Id only buy 20s if they were cheaper or easier to find than 30s, lol.

True that. I find my 20's disappear... I lend them to friends when we are shooting off the bench or prone, because a 30 gets in the way like double-D's... and then they seem to go home with the borrower. I just had to order 10 more Magpuls to reload my stash...

Charlie98 · May 19, 2021

Ethan Verity said:
People don't download magazines in their handguns, why should a rifle be any different?

Funny you should mention that... I was thinking about that after I read this thread.

I have 2 Kimbers that I use CMC PowerMags with... they hold 8 rounds. If you are locking a mag with the slide in battery, you have to RAM that magazine in place for it to lock, very similar to my experiences with loading a 30rd AR mag and locking it on a closed bolt. No, I don't download my 1911 mags by 1 round, the physical geometry is different, you have far more leverage with a pistol than you do a rifle with a forward mag well.

chicharrones · May 19, 2021

Ethan Verity said:
If it's a 30 round mag, I load 30 in it. If it can't handle the 30, I throw it away. People don't download magazines in their handguns, why should a rifle be any different?

Sure they do. I wouldn't say it's common with all magazines and all guns, but some handguns won't cycle and feed from what amounts to an overstuffed magazine. The friction of ammo on the slide during firing on some low powered handguns can be enough to not let the slide cycle properly on the first shot.

I'm not sure what gets lost in the translation from design, to manufacturing, to quality control of the magazine, then considering tolerances in different guns mag wells . . . but some mags and guns just don't like being loaded to "full rated" capacity. No matter if they are held with one hand or two.

This discussion is reminding me of my Beretta branded 30-round 92FS magazines I have for my CX4 PCC. Geez, those are probably the hardest to load mags I've ever dealt with, and inserting them fully loaded on a closed bolt . . . you'd think the mag catch would snap under the strain.

If I can load a magazine to its full rated capacity and I can press down the top cartridge by about half its diameter, that magazine is probably going to work well in a gun. It's the mags that I can't depress the top round that are likely to give me trouble. Sometimes a magazine can be broken in and it gets better, but sometimes not.

Now I'm starting to have flash backs of some of the magazines I've had to tune.

herrwalther · May 20, 2021

FL-NC said:
That is a lot of stuff going on while you may be engaged in a fight. In my experience, if the fight requires a reload, it is a significant fight, and probably not over.

I can count the number of times I did a mission with a standard ammunition load (7 mags) on one hand. Any other time I carried at least 6 extra mags for my rifle in a bandoleer. There is no such thing as too much ammo in an extended gun fight.

RetiredUSNChief · May 20, 2021

Buzznrose said:
I pretty much follow Larry Vickers' advice regarding magazines (and pretty much everything else) and have had zero issues since I started following it.

https://www.vickerstactical.com/magazines.html

Tip #2:
"2.) On tough to seat mags, download at least 1 round. If a fully loaded mag is difficult to seat with the slide or bolt assembly in battery, then download the mag by at least 1 round as a matter of habit. USGI aluminum M16 magazines are a good example of this as they are really only properly designed to take 28 rounds, not 30 as advertised. Glock pistol mags as a general rule should always be downloaded 1 round as a fully loaded mag is difficult to seat with the slide forward."

No.

Larry is incorrect on what the M16 magazines are "properly designed" to take. At best, this is his "opinion". But the facts do not support his opinion.

There are two capacities still in use in the military for these: 20 round and 30 round. The 20 round magazines are pretty much "legacy" magazines, and I'm not sure they're actively being re-ordered.

And you know what their mil spec capacity is? 20 and 30 rounds, respectively.

Mil spec isn't a "desire", it's a specification that the given material is to be designed and manufactured to. If the mil spec says "30 round capacity", then the design capacity IS 30 rounds.

So no...the the 30 round magazines are NOT "only properly designed to take 28 rounds".

The fact that any magazine may be down loaded by one or more rounds to make it easier to seat the magazine is beside the point. Can the magazines be seated while fully loaded and will the rifle function as designed with a fully loaded magazine inserted? If the answer to these two questions is "yes", then there's no more to discuss on this matter.

If the M16 couldn't be loaded and operated with a magazine fully loaded to the mil spec requirements, this issue would have been addressed long ago. The M16 has been in service for going on 60 years now, and the 30 round magazine requirement for about three years less than the rifle itself. To be sure, there have been changes and improvements to the magazines since their initial introductions. But their respective mil spec capacities for the 20 and 30 round magazines have not changed.

taliv · May 20, 2021

i download to 28. 29 would work, but i want an even number because of where it places the top round.

push, pull. not slap.

Orcon said:
I load on an open bolt, but I'm also not an operator operating operationally.

not an operator, but i load on a closed bolt more often than not, because when traveling in vehicles, i prefer not to have a round in the chamber. for a time, it was state law here that you could carry with loaded mags as long as there isn't a round in the chamber, but i think it's just a good safety practice.

entropy · May 20, 2021

I always loaded thirty, but then, I have never been in combat, so I usually load with the bolt back. When I have loaded with the bolt forward, I use the 'shove mag up, tug down, repeat if needed' method. It does take a smidge of extra time, and could be detrimental in combat. I'll defer to the combat vets on that.

Skeptic13 · May 20, 2021

Load mine all of the way when I need to. Never had an issue because of it.

shafter · May 20, 2021

Manufacturers should design their magazines so that they work perfectly with the advertised round capacity. Give them a little extra space if necessary.

Buzznrose · May 20, 2021

RetiredUSNChief said:
No.

Larry is incorrect on what the M16 magazines are "properly designed" to take. At best, this is his "opinion". But the facts do not support his opinion.

There are two capacities still in use in the military for these: 20 round and 30 round. The 20 round magazines are pretty much "legacy" magazines, and I'm not sure they're actively being re-ordered.

And you know what their mil spec capacity is? 20 and 30 rounds, respectively.

Mil spec isn't a "desire", it's a specification that the given material is to be designed and manufactured to. If the mil spec says "30 round capacity", then the design capacity IS 30 rounds.

So no...the the 30 round magazines are NOT "only properly designed to take 28 rounds".

The fact that any magazine may be down loaded by one or more rounds to make it easier to seat the magazine is beside the point. Can the magazines be seated while fully loaded and will the rifle function as designed with a fully loaded magazine inserted? If the answer to these two questions is "yes", then there's no more to discuss on this matter.

If the M16 couldn't be loaded and operated with a magazine fully loaded to the mil spec requirements, this issue would have been addressed long ago. The M16 has been in service for going on 60 years now, and the 30 round magazine requirement for about three years less than the rifle itself. To be sure, there have been changes and improvements to the magazines since their initial introductions. But their respective mil spec capacities for the 20 and 30 round magazines have not changed.

You know what...I’m not trying to argue with you about what is designed to do what, I just said I follow Vickers’ advice because he is recognized as a firearms expert by the gun industry, not because of his service record, but because of his actual training and experience inside the gun industry.

I don’t deny mag capacities are 30. I simply won’t load mags I may need for a real world response to a threat to capacity if they are hard to load on a closed bolt.

It works for me. I appreciate the fact that you are hard set on putting 30 rounds in a 30 round mag, and I have zero issues with that.

I’m sticking with loading the mag, checking for enough compression to seat easily on a closed bolt, and if it’s hard, taking a round or two out as needed.

I’m not trashing a mag that works fine just because I don’t want to deal with it being hard to seat.

You do you. I’ll be doing me over here...and we will get along fine.

taliv · May 20, 2021

Idk but my guess is the variability is more in the upper/lower mfg slop than the actual magazines.

some guns may need their mags downloaded and some may be fine at full capacity.

Rodfac · May 20, 2021

As a Forward Air Controller (FAC), serving with 5th Spl Forces in lll Corps, Vietnam 1970, I was issued an Air Force Car15 and two bandoliers of 20 round magazines. As a young Lt, I took all the advice I could get during those first few months in combat, and at that time, we routinely loaded 19 in a 20 round magazine. Reliability and the surety of seating the magazine were the issues as I recall. It's a habit that I've always followed with my civilian AR's. In two tours back then, I never saw a 30 round magazine, but did see a number of taped together 20's.

Nowadays, mags may be different, or quality control may be better than those early days of the M16, so I'd follow whatever works in your particular gun. YMMv Rod

MechAg94 · May 20, 2021

I have never heard any one talk about downloading pistol magazines. Never had any trouble with any of my pistols handling a fully loaded magazine.

I guess I have done both with rifles. Other than being difficult to seat, no other issues. I guess you can decide how difficult they are to seat in your rifle and decide if 29 or 28 rounds helps.

mshootnit · May 20, 2021

A US Army Veteran 1972-74 told me to download by one IIRC back in the 1980's or 90s

RetiredUSNChief · May 21, 2021

Buzznrose said:
You know what...I’m not trying to argue with you about what is designed to do what, I just said I follow Vickers’ advice because he is recognized as a firearms expert by the gun industry, not because of his service record, but because of his actual training and experience inside the gun industry.

I don’t deny mag capacities are 30. I simply won’t load mags I may need for a real world response to a threat to capacity if they are hard to load on a closed bolt.

It works for me. I appreciate the fact that you are hard set on putting 30 rounds in a 30 round mag, and I have zero issues with that.

I’m sticking with loading the mag, checking for enough compression to seat easily on a closed bolt, and if it’s hard, taking a round or two out as needed.

I’m not trashing a mag that works fine just because I don’t want to deal with it being hard to seat.

You do you. I’ll be doing me over here...and we will get along fine.

I'm not belaboring what "you" wish to do. I have issue with someone putting out false or incorrect information, which is what Larry Vickers has done with this if what you posted is what he said.

There is absolutely, positively, NOTHING wrong with down loading magazines for ease of use. That is a very practical purpose. I also don't mind people down loading magazines for other personal reasons...like for training, or even for OCD purposes like being able to load a full box of ammunition at a time in a certain number of magazines.

Most certainly, not wanting to deal with a hard to seat magazine is a perfectly good example of this.

I ONLY take issue when reasons are put forth which are patently false from an engineering point of view.

Most often, this takes the form of prevention of spring damage, especially when stored full (it does not), because it's a poor design which does not allow the magazines to be seated properly (it does not), or because they're not really designed to hold X amount (yes, they are).

Magazines which do legitimately exhibit these issues are defective and should be repaired or replaced.

Buzznrose · May 21, 2021

RetiredUSNChief said:
I'm not belaboring what "you" wish to do. I have issue with someone putting out false or incorrect information, which is what Larry Vickers has done with this if what you posted is what he said.

There is absolutely, positively, NOTHING wrong with down loading magazines for ease of use. That is a very practical purpose. I also don't mind people down loading magazines for other personal reasons...like for training, or even for OCD purposes like being able to load a full box of ammunition at a time in a certain number of magazines.

Most certainly, not wanting to deal with a hard to seat magazine is a perfectly good example of this.

I ONLY take issue when reasons are put forth which are patently false from an engineering point of view.

Most often, this takes the form of prevention of spring damage, especially when stored full (it does not), because it's a poor design which does not allow the magazines to be seated properly (it does not), or because they're not really designed to hold X amount (yes, they are).

Magazines which do legitimately exhibit these issues are defective and should be repaired or replaced.

Shanghai McCoy · May 22, 2021

Yes, I download 2 rounds.
(Wow, confession does make you feel better... )

MachIVshooter · May 22, 2021

I download most mags by 10%-15% for long term storage. Some don't need it, have plenty of "breathing room" for the springs, but many are borderline overcompressed when fully loaded and will take a set. My RP45 night stand gun, 15+1 max capacity, I keep loaded at 13 because the coils are touching each other when you squeeze all 15 in, and compressed even more when seated in the gun.

30 round AR mags that are to be stored loaded for years I put 25 rounds in.

Bcwitt · May 29, 2021

I load 20 rd in my "ready" 30s. That gives an immediate supply without straining my mag springs while permitting easy bolt fwd loads. I just keep a charger & pouch of clips attached to my armor & top them off if time permits.

Space Ghost · May 29, 2021

herrwalther said:
I can count the number of times I did a mission with a standard ammunition load (7 mags) on one hand. Any other time I carried at least 6 extra mags for my rifle in a bandoleer. There is no such thing as too much ammo in an extended gun fight.

True that. 28 years in, and for almost all of that it was peacetime training. We had the standard combat loadout of 210 rounds. My first combat deployment was pre-9/11, and nothing changed. 9/11 hit and I was stuck on an air base for much of that tour seeing little action, but that 3rd deployment... Double load for everyone. Had SAW pouches on my body armor, 6 mags each side, one in the gun, and one on a buttstock pouch. Never ran out, but actually came close once. We through a LOT of lead around... but I only got 6 of the ******** the whole year. (all within about 15 minutes on the same day, the day I almost ran out) You're hot, tired, mad, scared... you end up missing a lot. I mean A LOT. It was like the "A-Team" out there... lol. Keep in mind I was already in my 40s, just waiting to retire.

BTW, I was a Cub Scout leader at the time, so the corresponding Girl Scout leader sent me several cases of Girl Scout cookies, and I passed them out to the local kids when we had a chance to. You can see the big ass SAW pouches filled with mags... That Beta C-mag, well, that's a whole nother story. Heavy, but it worked well. Since we operated out of vehicles it wasn't that big of a hassle. Sold it when I got back. Not practical for dismounted patrolling, but I could start off things right...

2 less than max in an AR mag. Do you?

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