Article: Are there really this many Ghost Guns?

One possibility is that the normal sources of guns for criminals ran dry due to the surge in gun sales during covid, forcing them to switch to "ghost guns". They have access to the same tools that law abiding citizens have access to.

That is of course if these are actual real numbers and not propaganda of some sort. There was a story recently about this issue in CA, so the possibility of a anti gun states pushing this issue is real as well

I suppose it would take a high degree of risk off of the supplier. They don’t need to steal, they don’t need to have any paperwork attached to their name, and essentially walk away risk-free once they do the deal. I’m sure someone out there has made a cottage industry out of building and selling to thugs. This is why we can’t have nice things.

It's the same old bs, blame the gun fit acts of violence, push for stricter laws that exacerbate the problem instead of arming 5 million law abiding citizens so they can defend themselves from violent acts.

Obviously NY interpretation of the second amendment, excessive restrictions especially handguns, isn't working then go on to try and Shane scotus into ruling that their actions regarding firearm access is constitutional. What a load of cow manure, but it was read, reported in the daily news so some ignorant people are going to believe it's true.

Ever so often TFB (The Firearm Blog) runs foreign articles on DIY guns (Do-It-Yourself homebuilds), from countries like Sweden, Israel, India, Brazil.
Most of the TFB DIY articles I have read show arrays of guns seized from underground factories usually the size of a two-car garage.
Outlaw motorcycle clubs in Australia make copies of the MAC 10 submachinegun in shops equipped to fabricate motorcycle parts. Stories pop up ever so often.
"Carlos" - copies of the Karl Gustav Swedish submachine gun (itself derived from the British Sten) - are popular with criminals and terrorists in Europe and the Middle East in whatever pistol caliber is available locally.
In India, .22 LR ammo is commercially available and "Carlos" styled after the AK in .22 LR are common terrorist weapons as AK22s.
Infamously in the US, a MAC10 one of many fabricated by white supremacist group Covenant Sword and Arm of the Lord was used by Bruder Sweigen aka Silent Brotherhood aka The Order to assassinate talk show host Alan Berg (who in response to death threats from The Order had applied for a handgun permit and was denied and safely unarmed was machine gunned in his garage).

Yes criminal "Ghost Guns" are a long time, world-wide phenomenon, BECAUSE of gun control. Are we to believe more gun control will solve the DIY gun problem?

Most likely, a lot of the bootleg guns attracted to NYC have always been untraceable DIY firearms, and just that now "Ghost Gun" in ref to 80% finished home-builds have become the cause of the day and NYPD and NY Daily News have had it.

Once you start paying attention to something that always existed, the number of identified instances will increase the more attention you pay to it year to year. The something could actually be declining but getting recognized more. Why that should be a cause for alarm and panick escapes me, no matter what the issue..

ATF and NYPD cite one to two million illegal guns in NYC. So 135 "Ghost Guns" have been identified in NYC so far in 2021. A trend in Ghost Gun numbers or a trend in recognition?

I have seen lumped into "Ghost Gun" category unnumbered guns factory made before the 1968 GCA required serial numbers and guns that have had the serial number obliterated or even firearms whose serial number cannot be traced due to lack or loss of records. "Ghost Gun" does not necessarily refer to "80% frame" homebuilt gun.

"Ghost Gun" meet old friend "Saturday Night Special", "Hijacker Special", "Teflon Cop Killer Bullet" and "Assault Weapon" as bugaboo de jour.

They’re gaslighting about “ghost guns” actually mattering in crime use. It’s about gun control. Just an extension of allowing the obvious to be “interpreted”, as in the case of the 2A. This nonsense started in 1934, and has been steadily rolling onward since.

Before I'd believe the stats quoted... I'd like to see an impartial review of that "report" including exactly what are they considering to be "ghost guns" since all too often in the past these kinds of articles are based on "cooked" reports - exaggerated to make a political point.

Yes, we know that the folks who run NY are not exactly 2nd amendment supporters - and I'm absolutely certain they're not happy about pending court cases involving pistol permits. Looks to me like the opening (or continuing) salvo from them to "raise public awareness" and support for additional anti-gun efforts on their part...

Glad I'm writing this from Florida.. and can't say I'd ever willing live in that state...

"This nonsense started in 1934, and has been steadily rolling onward since."

Actually it started shortly after the Volstead Act prohibition of alcohol was successful.* The progressives went looking for something else to ban to improve mankind and seized on handguns. It is no accident that today's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is descended from the Bureau of Prohibition that enforced alcohol prohibition..
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* H.L.Mencken, "The Uplifters Try It Again", Evening Sun of Baltimore, 30 Nov 1925

From the NY Daily News, what could be a more reliable source of information then their editorial board?

Good Grief

Yeah, I want to see the definitions too. I can see them including any category of gun they cannot or will not use normal techniques to identify as a 'ghost' gun. Antiques, worn off, filed off, guns of unknown origin. Not Polymer 80 or similar guns.

I'll bet that there are more unfinished receivers being held in their incomplete state, than there are ones finished into working guns. In other words these are guns-in-waiting, ready to come out of the woodwork at the point where gun control becomes unbearable.

This is a problem that the gun controllers themselves created. If gun regulations were reasonable (and guaranteed to stay that way), there wouldn't be a "ghost gun" phenomenon.

The Midtown machinist gang is notorious for cranking out ghost guns or I completely made that up, like their statistics….

Mainstream news media often includes stolen guns with serial numbers illegally removed into their definition of "ghost guns", don't explain (or don't understand) the difference, and so their readers and viewers assume their reporting is referring to the end result of unfinished DIY completion personal-use firearms that - by law - don't require serial numbers.

AlexanderA said:

I'll bet that there are more unfinished receivers being held in their incomplete state, than there are ones finished into working guns. In other words these are guns-in-waiting, ready to come out of the woodwork at the point where gun control becomes unbearable.

This is a problem that the gun controllers themselves created. If gun regulations were reasonable (and guaranteed to stay that way), there wouldn't be a "ghost gun" phenomenon.

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Reading around in gun forums, there are a few who comment on the number of unassembled lowers they possess, both legal serial numbered and "80%" lowers which aren't finished.

The reality is that those unfinished lowers are just as legal as the serial numbered ones. The process of finishing one by an individual citizen is entirely legal, and the ATF has no statute to guide regulation to prevent it. It's based on our Right to Keep and Bear Arms, which was first demonstrated when Britian embargoed guns from Europe and forced us to make our own. Since pioneers and emigrants from oppressed nations tend to be a bit more imaginative and very often highly skilled, they came up with a far superior alternative to the Brown Bess musket, a rifle typified with the word "Kentucky." It was far more accurate, and due to the limited scale of production often bespoke. It became a standard in America and prompted markmanship contests we still celebrate with "turkey shoots" all around the country.

No firearm was required to have a serial number until the 68 GCA - the military was doing that for inventory control as theft of pilferable items in the service is a serious issue.

If you want to buy an unfinished reciever, it's not illegal or immoral - but the anti gunners couch their language that way to make them seem illicit and improper to possess. A citizen can finish it as they see fit, they do NOT have to put any identifying marks on it as that is ONLY cited for those who possess a Manufacturer's license and they better handle the process correctly. Stag Arms got raided and items seized due to not conforming to whatever steps the ATF required. Its their way or the highway. You or me, we can drill out, or bolt flats together, no serial required. Completely legal, we can make hundreds of them if we like. Selling them, however, is the key - one every few years may be ok, dozens a month requires an FFL. And if the the ATF gets a hint your finishing 80% lowers in bulk quantites they will want you to get a makers license and serial number them. They have increased their enforcement efforts in that a lot more. One case involved a shop where the customer brought in their 80% to finish on the shops machinery and the ATF crawled all over that situation.

80% lowers - an arbitrary number as the ATF determines that by which hole is or isn't there, including mag wells, trigger housings etc - are a much larger part of the unfinished lower market than Ghost Guns, which are created from practically scratch onsite and fashioned to accept all the necessary parts to work. Ghost Guns are often 3D computer printed, an 80% is more often conventional forged with the required finish machining left out.

When you read "ghost guns" in the media tho you could be getting misinformed about what is actually seized - a typical ploy to inflate numbers. 3D printed guns are pretty rare and often self destruct in test firing, but it is getting better. They are also much more expensive than 80% unfinished, and require their own proprietary parts often printed too. An 80% uses standard AR15 parts readily available.

The reality is you could pick up and handle an 80% AR15 and completely miss the fact there is no serial number. A 3D gun, nope, the programmers still prefer the ray gun from space motif. It's much more likely the 132 "ghost guns" are just finished 80% lowers as it's cheaper, easier, assembles more readily and has no proprietary or difficult parts to access. Note they didn't line them up for pics which is typical when exploiting something like this for publicity. What we get is a pic of a 3Gen Glock clone
at an angle where it's impossible to see if there is a serial number or not.

Right now 3Gen Glocks have no copyright and dozens of makers around the world are running molds of the lowers and selling them all they can. "Glones" are gonna be a major seller considering the low prices - $399? And likely could replace the zinc die cast autos from FL as the most reviled handgun in the press.

I had no interest in 80% Glocks until my state tried to ban them. Now I am building a couple.

Something doesn't seem right. Police love showing off seized property, especially when it's unusual or record breaking. A press conference with tables full of dozens of handmade / garage built / ghost guns would garner much media attention and go viral.

If they have found hundreds of these guns in the last 2 years that means there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of these guns out there in circulation. I find it hard to believe there are 1000's of enterprising criminals who are taking the time and effort to put together ghost guns and 80% builds in NY. If there are actually 1,000's of these guns in criminal hands in NY it's because a gang, or a number of gangs, has found a way to put together 80% builds for cheaper than they can otherwise acquire guns for. If this is the case they are already breaking the law and "manufacturing" firearms.

reddog81 said:

Something doesn't seem right. Police love showing off seized property, especially when it's unusual or record breaking. A press conference with tables full of dozens of handmade / garage built / ghost guns would garner much media attention and go viral.

If they have found hundreds of these guns in the last 2 years that means there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of these guns out there in circulation. I find it hard to believe there are 1000's of enterprising criminals who are taking the time and effort to put together ghost guns and 80% builds in NY. If there are actually 1,000's of these guns in criminal hands in NY it's because a gang, or a number of gangs, has found a way to put together 80% builds for cheaper than they can otherwise acquire guns for. If this is the case they are already breaking the law and "manufacturing" firearms.

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I’m skeptical as well, but I highly doubt the end user is the builder. Seems like a good money maker for organized crime (not saying Italian Mafia).

Tirod said:

*snip*

When you read "ghost guns" in the media tho you could be getting misinformed about what is actually seized - a typical ploy to inflate numbers. 3D printed guns are pretty rare and often self destruct in test firing, but it is getting better. They are also much more expensive than 80% unfinished, and require their own proprietary parts often printed too. An 80% uses standard AR15 parts readily available.

The reality is you could pick up and handle an 80% AR15 and completely miss the fact there is no serial number. A 3D gun, nope, the programmers still prefer the ray gun from space motif. It's much more likely the 132 "ghost guns" are just finished 80% lowers as it's cheaper, easier, assembles more readily and has no proprietary or difficult parts to access. Note they didn't line them up for pics which is typical when exploiting something like this for publicity. What we get is a pic of a 3Gen Glock clone
at an angle where it's impossible to see if there is a serial number or not.

Right now 3Gen Glocks have no copyright and dozens of makers around the world are running molds of the lowers and selling them all they can. "Glones" are gonna be a major seller considering the low prices - $399? And likely could replace the zinc die cast autos from FL as the most reviled handgun in the press.

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Not really super relevant to your point here, but I love nerding out on technical details.

3D printed parts lack the strength because you're effectively casting with plastic but not using any method of reinforcing said plastic nor are you achieving the best possible cohesion between layers. That space gun motif is because the only way to make a part strong enough to withstand more than a single magazine in an AR or AK is to make said part very thick.
InRange TV on Youtube actually goes into some of this when they discuss the What Would Stoner Do 2020 rifle with its polymer lower. They talk about how many others fail because they attempt to duplicate the size of an AR lower with polymer when that simply won't work for long because its not as strong as the aluminum normally used to make a lower. That's why the WWSD lower looks the way it does and why the stock was integrally cast. It adds a great deal of rigidity to the parts and you have to make it thicker in certain areas to cope with the stress of firing.
Also, in one of the WWSD 2020 videos, they mention that the material used is PA6.6 w/ GF30 or GF33. Meaning Polyamide 6.6 with glass fiber content of 30 or 33% (I don't recall which) or essentially the same thing Glock uses to make their frames and what most cordless tool bodies are made of these days. Some manufacturers specify their own special blends that won't be made widely available. If you like, you can open up most plastic parts that are cast or molded and you'll find the stamp as to what its made of. ABS means ABS plastic. PS means PolyStyrene, PC is Polycarbonate. For example, I just popped the battery cover off a Brother P-Touch label printer and its stamped PS-HI which is PolyStyrene - High Impact.
PA6.6 the generic name for Nylon 66. However, you can't put PA6.6-GF30 in a 3D printer because it can't pump the glass fibers through. You have to investment cast the parts which is incredibly expensive. It's also why you're not likely to see the 3D Printed Evil Ghost Guns ever become anything but a novelty. Getting the correct materials to pump through a print head just isn't viable. To make them strong enough, you need lots more plastic, hence space pewpews.

Or, you could simply buy a block of PA6.6-GF30 and carve out the part you want. It's fairly cheap on the interwebs. I'll leave the possibilities to your imaginations.

Carl N. Brown said:

I have seen lumped into "Ghost Gun" category unnumbered guns factory made before the 1968 GCA required serial numbers and guns that have had the serial number obliterated or even firearms whose serial number cannot be traced due to lack or loss of records. "Ghost Gun" does not necessarily refer to "80% frame" homebuilt gun.

"Ghost Gun" meet old friend "Saturday Night Special", "Hijacker Special", "Teflon Cop Killer Bullet" and "Assault Weapon" as bugaboo de jour.

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Most of the news stories I've read about this wail and lament about the 80% lowers and buried way down towards the end of the articles we find out their definition includes guns with removed SN's. There was a flurry of stories not long ago about the problem in California.

If one sees 1 carnivorous Boojum last year, and sees 3 this year, then sightings o the Boojum have increased 300%.

Cue dramatic headline of Portending Doom! Run Away! Run Away!

Note that none of the supplied data will tell us if the alleged Boojum is fruminous or not.

Which then causes no end of debate focusing on Bandersnach, as they are nearly always fruminous. Just ask my sister after the moose bit her, she saw bandersnatch tracks.

The entire "ghost gun" debate is equally empty. There's no agreed definition, all the numbers are, perforce, entirely subjective.

Arguing over the subjective never achieves objective results.

Whether a person carries a revolver or a self-loading sidearm will have no effect on their rifle shooting.

AlexanderA said:

I'll bet that there are more unfinished receivers being held in their incomplete state, than there are ones finished into working guns. In other words these are guns-in-waiting, ready to come out of the woodwork at the point where gun control becomes unbearable.

This is a problem that the gun controllers themselves created. If gun regulations were reasonable (and guaranteed to stay that way), there wouldn't be a "ghost gun" phenomenon.

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Yes there would. Making your own firearm has always been legal, since the birth of the country. They’re just going after another target to infringe upon our rights.

The use of “ghost guns” in crimes is irrelevant. It simply doesn’t matter. It’s l like discussing the number of V8 vehicles used in crimes, or hammers, or knives, or hands and feet. Irrelevant. They are tools.
Sometimes tools are used in violent crimes. Like Al-Zarqawi and electric drills in Iraq. Go after the criminal, not the tool.

"...Or, you could simply buy a block of PA6.6-GF30 and carve out the part you want. It's fairly cheap on the interwebs. I'll leave the possibilities to your imaginations..."
Well, guess it's time to dust off my whittling knives.

Back in the nineties, I saw plans online for making an AR lower out of wood, and there's been plans for STEN clones out there since the 70's. The really hard part is going to be magazines, but I imagine any tinknocker worth his salt could cobble something up.