Giving a firearm as a gift

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Thomasss

Thomasss

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When my son was 12 years old and took Hunter's Safety, his nice rich uncle made sure he had a nice .22LR rifle to hunt with. Now, all of his friends said, it really wasn't his, but belong to me, his "Dad", I think because of his age. The gun was kept in the family gun cabinet. Now officially, could the gun belong to him at age 12 or would it have to be "given" to him when he was older?

I had the understanding guns can be given as "gifts" or "inherited" by law.
 
Thomasss said:
.....I had the understanding guns can be given as "gifts" or "inherited" by law.
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One may indeed give someone else a gun as a gift (whether inter vivos (during life) or post mortem by will or trust), but any transfer must still comply with applicable law. So --

  1. Under federal law a gift of a gun to a resident of another State must go through an FFL (except a post mortem gift by bequest).

  2. Under some circumstances state law might require that transfer go through an FFL.

  3. The transferor must not be prohibited under state or federal law from possessing a gun.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Under federal law a gift of a gun to a resident of another State must go through an FFL
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I believe that applies, under federal law, to handguns or receivers (not long guns) if it's delivered in person. If shipping, yes. It would have to be shipped to an FFL if it crosses state lines.
 
Old_Grouch said:
I believe that applies, under federal law, to handguns or receivers (not long guns) if it's delivered in person. If shipping, yes. It would have to be shipped to an FFL if it crosses state lines.
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Incorrect. If the transfer of any firearm goes from the resident of one state to the resident of another, said transfer must pass through an FFL.
 
It depends on State law. The recent school shooting in Oakland, MI is an a example. The parents of the shooter have been indicted for involuntary manslaughter. They publicized that the bought the gun for the boy as a birthday present. MI law prohibits a person under age from buying, owning, or possessing a gun (of any type).
 
Old_Grouch said:
Frank Ettin said:
Under federal law a gift of a gun to a resident of another State must go through an FFL
Click to expand...
I believe that applies, under federal law, to handguns or receivers (not long guns) if it's delivered in person. If shipping, yes. It would have to be shipped to an FFL if it crosses state lines.
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People keep getting this wrong even though the law has been in effect for over 50 years and I've posted the following many times here:

  1. Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

  3. In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence. In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

  4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

  6. Here's what the statutes say:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph


    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

    (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to


    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph


    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​
    ...
    Click to expand...

  7. Violation of these federal laws is punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine. It also results in a lifetime loss of gun rights.
 
.308 Norma said:
I think the OP's question is more about whether or not a 12 year-old can legally own a gun....
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I suspect that you're probably right. But the problem is that the legal analysis necessary is much more complex than that -- because we are talking about guns, and guns are heavily regulated.

There's considerable federal law about guns and a wild jumble of state laws about guns. And many of these laws deal with the transfer and possession of firearms -- and in general those laws are mostly about possession and not ownership.

Possession is:
: the act of having or taking into control
b: control or occupancy of property without regard to ownership
c: OWNERSHIP
d: control of the ball or puckalso : an instance of having such control (as in football)scored on their first two possessions
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The key meaning here is "having or taking into control." So, for example, federal law looks at "possession" like this (U.S. v. Booth, 111 F.3d 1 (C.A.1 (Mass.), 1997, at 1, emphasis added)):
...The law recognizes two kinds of possession, actual possession and constructive possession.... Even when a person does not actually possess an object, he may be in constructive possession of it. Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and the intention at a given time of exercising dominion and control over an object or over the area in which the object is located. The law recognizes no distinction between actual and constructive possession, either form of possession is sufficient. Possession of an object may be established by either direct evidence or by circumstantial evidence. It is not necessary to prove ownership of the object,...
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Ownership, in law, is about the universe of rights and powers one has with regard to some kind of property -- including the right and power to exclude others from using the property and to sell or otherwise dispose of property. One may possess property but not own it.

One may also own property, but not possess it. For example, in U.S. v. Casterline, 103 F.3d 76 (C.A.9 (Or.), 1996), the 9th Circuit set aside a conviction for being a felon in possession of a gun, because the conviction was based solely on evidence of ownership, but under circumstances in which the defendant could not possibly have had access to or possession of the guns. Casterline was in prison at the time, and the guns were in the sheriff's department evidence locker. As the Ninth Circuit wrote in Casterline, at 79 (emphasis added):
...The felon-in-possession statute is prophylactic, intended "to keep guns out of the hands of those who have demonstrated that 'they may not be trusted to possess a firearm without becoming a threat to society.' " Scarborough v. United States, 431 U.S. 563, 572, 97 S.Ct. 1963 1968, 52 L.Ed.2d 582 (1977). Ownership without physical access to, or dominion and control over, the firearm does not constitute possession. If the felon owns a firearm, but does not actually possess or have dominion and control over it, then he does not possess the firearm for purposes of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g). ....
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So, perhaps, a child could theoretically have an ownership interest in a gun, but laws governing possession might be a barrier to his physical possession and use of the gun -- at least without parental supervision.

Yes, we all know that once upon a time kids would take their .22s to school and go hunting on their way home. But unfortunately, that was then, and this is now.
 
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Thomasss said:
.308 Norma is correct, I am just concerned with whether a 12 year kid can legally own a firearm.
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That purely depends on the State laws of firearms possession where the kid lives. And just saying "that one's mine" does not constitute ownership. Kids say that about stuff all the time. No kid under 18 can legally purchase a firearm, so consequently they cannot own one in their name, it is always Dad's or Mom's or Grandpa's until they reach legal age even if they claim ownership. A very touchy area as we have seen lately...
 
Rubone said:
That purely depends on the State laws of firearms possession where the kid lives. And just saying "that one's mine" does not constitute ownership. Kids say that about stuff all the time. No kid under 18 can legally purchase a firearm, so consequently they cannot own one in their name, it is always Dad's or Mom's or Grandpa's until they reach legal age even if they claim ownership. A very touchy area as we have seen lately...
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Not true. See section 3 below
USC 922 Unlawful Acts https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title18/html/USCODE-2009-title18-partI-chap44.htm
(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(3) This subsection does not apply to—
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile—
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except—
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.


(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.
(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).
(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.
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Thats federal law. Your state may be more restrictive.
Further, a licensed dealer cannot sell or transfer a firearm to anyone not yet age 21 (age 18 for rifles and shotguns).
 
Rubone writes:

...so consequently they cannot own one in their name..
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Many states do not register firearms, so no one in them "owns one in their name." None of my firearms are "owned in my name." My state's laws address purchase, possession, and use by the under-21 set, but not ownership.
 
MedWheeler said:
…..Many states do not register firearms, so no one in them "owns one in their name."….
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So an item of your personal property which hasn’t been registered with the government isn’t actually owned by you? That, of course, is preposterous.

Ownership is a panoply of rights and powers one has with respect to real or personal property, such as a right to exclusive possession and use, the right and power to exclude others, and the right and power to dispose of the property. Things like registration, government issue certificates of title, bills of sale, or deeds (especially when filed with the government), can be very useful if one needs to establish that he owns something; but actual ownership (in one’s name) is independent of government registration.
 
I shall probably be endlessly amazed at the number of people who tie themselves up in knots over the picayune differences between "holding title to" and "in immediate control of." Which often includes a conflation of "ability to purchase" atop all that.

The study of Law is complex and requires much practice, and is best left to professionals.
 
Frank Ettin writes:

So an item of your personal property which hasn’t been registered with the government isn’t actually owned by you? That, of course, is preposterous.
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I was addressing post 10, and was unclear. My point was more following the concept that "owning in one's name" and "owning on paper" (some official documentation") are synonymous, with which I do not agree. I was in no way denying that I own my firearms; I did not imagine that anyone here would think that I was.

I am curious about this line from post 10:

No kid under 18 can legally purchase a firearm, so consequently they cannot own one in their name, it is always Dad's or Mom's or Grandpa's until they reach legal age even if they claim ownership.
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Can a minor child own anything, really? It doesn't seem so.

Ownership is a panoply of rights and powers one has with respect to real or personal property, such as a right to exclusive possession and use, the right and power to exclude others, and the right and power to dispose of the property.
Click to expand...
 
MedWheeler said:
…. My point was more following the concept that "owning in one's name" and "owning on paper" (some official documentation") are synonymous, with which I do not agree….
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Okay, you disagree with the proposition that, “…. owning in one's name’ and ‘owning on paper’ (some official documentation") are synonymous….” Why? Support your answer with reference to applicable case law or statutes.

And, in fact, your comment is not accurate:

  1. Ownership is one thing. It’s an array of rights and powers one has with respect to property (real or personal). There may be different types of ownership, e. g., shared ownership (e. g., joint tenancy or as tenants in common), but ownership as a legal concept is essentially independent of the documentation.

  2. Documentation, such as government registration, deeds, bills of lading, bills of sale, documents relating to the acquisition of the item of property, etc., are useful, and might be necessary, to establish the fact or type of ownership.
So your comment doesn’t really mean anything, nor is it an accurate statement of what the law is.

MedWheeler said:
…Can a minor child own anything, really? It doesn't seem so.
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But that’s related to a minor child’s limited legal capacity to enter into contracts and otherwise manage his own affairs.
 
dogtown tom said:
Not true. See section 3 below


Thats federal law. Your state may be more restrictive.
Further, a licensed dealer cannot sell or transfer a firearm to anyone not yet age 21 (age 18 for rifles and shotguns).
Click to expand...


The age 18 for a rifle no longer is true in Florida. A person must be 21 to obtain one from a licensed dealer, due thanks to the Marjorie Stoneman Act from the Parkland shooting.
 
Rule3 said:
The age 18 for a rifle no longer is true in Florida. A person must be 21 to obtain one from a licensed dealer, due thanks to the Marjorie Stoneman Act from the Parkland shooting.
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Again, Thats federal law. Your state may be more restrictive.
 
dogtown tom writes:

(to this: >>The age 18 for a rifle no longer is true in Florida. A person must be 21 to obtain one from a licensed dealer, due thanks to the Marjorie Stoneman Act from the Parkland shooting.<<)

Again, Thats federal law. Your state may be more restrictive.
Click to expand...

Actually, he was citing Florida law. The Marjory Stoneman Douglas Act was passed in Florida in response to the shooting at the school after which the Act is named, and did indeed raise the minimum purchase age for any firearm to 21 (the previous minimum age for the purchase from a FFL of a long gun was 18.)
 
MedWheeler said:
dogtown tom writes:

(to this: >>The age 18 for a rifle no longer is true in Florida. A person must be 21 to obtain one from a licensed dealer, due thanks to the Marjorie Stoneman Act from the Parkland shooting.<<)



Actually, he was citing Florida law. The Marjory Stoneman Douglas Act was passed in Florida in response to the shooting at the school after which the Act is named, and did indeed raise the minimum purchase age for any firearm to 21 (the previous minimum age for the purchase from a FFL of a long gun was 18.)
Click to expand...
No kidding.
Why is it so hard to understand the difference between federal law and a more restrictive state law?
 
Dogtown tom writes:

No kidding.
Why is it so hard to understand the difference between federal law and a more restrictive state law?
Click to expand...

Your post (18) reads as if you're differentiating between Florida and Federal law.

Again, Thats federal law. Your state may be more restrictive.
Click to expand...

Was your response referring to something other than the line you quoted and placed directly above it (this one?):

The age 18 for a rifle no longer is true in Florida. A person must be 21 to obtain one from a licensed dealer, due thanks to the Marjorie Stoneman Act from the Parkland shooting.
Click to expand...
 
MedWheeler said:
D
Was your response referring to something other than the line you quoted and placed directly above it (this one?):
Click to expand...
See post #11. I posted current Federal law.
And YES, YES, YES and YES I'm differentiating between Federal law and state law. Federal law applies EVERYWHERE. A state/county/city/town can be more restrictive than federal law.

It's annoying to post a cite from federal law, make the point that its FEDERAL LAW AND YOUR STATE LAW MAY BE MORE RESTRICTIVE, then have someone write "but in ______ its different!". Yeah, we know.;)

California, Washington, New Jersey, etc all have firearms laws that are more restrictive than Federal law. But for the majority of America, state laws are not more restrictive.
 
I live in Ohio which has very few restrictions. Other than the initial FFL transfer, I don't believe any record exists of my firearms except my own spreadsheet.

If I wanted to simply give one of these guns to my adult kid, who lives with me in the same house, is that allowed? I haven't drawn up a will yet, but I assume I can just give all my guns to my daughter as simply as a toaster, right?
 
valnar, post: 12137213, member: 4592"]I live in Ohio which has very few restrictions.
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Let us look at Ohio's Law. First item that appears to be mete:
https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-2923.2
Section 2923.20 | Unlawful transaction in weapons.
Chapter 2923 Conspiracy, Attempt, And Complicity; Weapons Control; Corrupt Activity
Effective: April 12, 2021
(A) No person shall do any of the following:

(1) Recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance;

(2) Possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division (A) of this section;

(3) Except as otherwise provided in division (B) of this section, knowingly solicit, persuade, encourage, or entice a federally licensed firearms dealer or private seller to transfer a firearm or ammunition to any person in a manner prohibited by state or federal law;

(4) Except as otherwise provided in division (B) of this section, with an intent to deceive, knowingly provide materially false information to a federally licensed firearms dealer or private seller;

(5) Except as otherwise provided in division (B) of this section, knowingly procure, solicit, persuade, encourage, or entice a person to act in violation of division (A)(3) or (4) of this section;

(6) When transferring any dangerous ordnance to another, negligently fail to require the transferee to exhibit such identification, license, or permit showing the transferee to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section 2923.17 of the Revised Code, or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of that record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place;

(7) Knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in the person's possession or under the person's control.
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That appears to read that you can't give to a prohibited person.
2923.21 Covers furnishing to minors (emphasis added):
https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-2923.21
(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;
Click to expand...
So, if the son is 21 or older, then, yes.
I did not make a detailed check to see if Ohio has a mandatory safe storage law.
 
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