Gifting handgun to family member

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CapnMac writes:

(to Avatar's "You realize that you are still on record as the owner…")

FL has no State Registry.
The 4473 will be in the FL stores where purchased, but that will be the only location. Unless/until said FFL closes and gives up it's License.
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..and even that's not a record of ownership, only one of purchase. Florida doesn't maintain a database of gun ownership.
 
I kept hearing the same story from all the gun shops that because Tennessee doesn't register gun ownership, that I was his Grandfather gifting it to a relative, and that was the reason I didn't need to go through an FFL. I told them that federal law required it but they kept to the same story about Tennessee not having a gun registry. The only problem with that is should my Grandson sell or trade the firearm and it is used in a crime the ATF will then go to the manufacturer and follow the supply chain down to the store I purchased it from. Then the Feds will knock on my door and want to know how a gun sold to me was used in a crime in Tennessee. All of a sudden me and the Grandson are having the ATF crawling up our backside because I didn't use an FFL to transfer the gun to him. The possibility of this happening is very low but when you are that very small percentage life gets pretty rough and I'm too old to get involved in that kind of situation.
 
MedWheeler said:
CapnMac writes:

(to Avatar's "You realize that you are still on record as the owner…")
Yep. And when you transfer the firearm out of state it is supposed to go through an FFL creating a paper trail.


..and even that's not a record of ownership, only one of purchase. Florida doesn't maintain a database of gun ownership.
Click to expand...
 
Atavar said:
Yep. And when you transfer the firearm out of state it is supposed to go through an FFL creating a paper trail.
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Yet it doesn't.
New firearms are easily traced by following that "paper trail".
LE requests a firearm trace from ATF National Tracing Center:
ATF contacts the manufacturer or importer> who tells ATF what distributor they shipped that gun to > ATF contacts distributor, who tells them what dealer they shipped to> ATF contacts the dealer and asks for a copy of the Form 4473 of the buyer/transferee > ATF contacts that buyer/transferee or notifies the requesting LE agency . If the original buyer/transferee says "Uh, I sold it to some dude in the parking lot at WalMart, I don't have any info on him"......the trace ends there. If that original buyer/transferee has contact info on the person he sold it to the trace may continue on.

versus

Tracing a used firearm. If local LE requests a trace (as described above) the trail almost always ends at that first buyer/transferee. As federal law does not require a 4473/NICS for transfers between nonlicensees....there is no Form. Further, the Form 4473 did not exist before 1968, so firearm manufactured prior would be next to impossible to trace.

As far as "creating a paper trail"...........it's of little value.
For example, you wish to transfer your Grandads old Colt SAA to your out of state grandson when he turns 21. You go to a licensed dealer in his state of residence, grandson fills out the 4473, passes NICS and can take possession of the revolver. He later decides to trade that Colt for a gold plated Taurus 92 to some dude he met on a local gun forum. Any ATF firearm trace is an exercise in futility........Colt may have the records of where they shipped Grandads SAA, but Grandad didn't fill out a 4473 back in 1950. ATF doesn't know anything about the 4473 filled out by the grandson because ATF doesn't get 4473's, the dealer keeps them until he goes out of business. That gun has no trail to follow.

Gun traces only solve crimes on TV.
 
I finally got a live person to answer at the local ATF office and he emphatically stated that the pistols had to go through an FFL in Tennessee because we live in different states. I asked if I could have given the guns to a Tennessee FFL and have them do the transfer. He stated no, it had to go from an FFL here in Florida to an FFL in Tennessee. He stated an FFL in Tennessee could not legally receive the pistols from me. ?????? That doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess laws don't have to make sense.
 
George Dickel said:
I finally got a live person to answer at the local ATF office and he emphatically stated that the pistols had to go through an FFL in Tennessee because we live in different states. I asked if I could have given the guns to a Tennessee FFL and have them do the transfer. He stated no, it had to go from an FFL here in Florida to an FFL in Tennessee. He stated an FFL in Tennessee could not legally receive the pistols from me. ?????? That doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess laws don't have to make sense.
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Just because he works at the ATF doesn’t make him right.
 
George Dickel said:
I finally got a live person to answer at the local ATF office and he emphatically stated that the pistols had to go through an FFL in Tennessee because we live in different states. I asked if I could have given the guns to a Tennessee FFL and have them do the transfer. He stated no, it had to go from an FFL here in Florida to an FFL in Tennessee. He stated an FFL in Tennessee could not legally receive the pistols from me. ?????? That doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess laws don't have to make sense.
Click to expand...
Call him back, tell him he's an idiot and tell him to read his own FAQ:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca
To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of their state, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under federal law. There may be state laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact their State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible state or local restrictions.

Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of state, the firearm must be shipped to a federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s state of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any state for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if they do not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent.

A person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any state. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(5) and 922(d); 27 CFR 478.30, 478.32]

Last Reviewed January 30, 2020
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dogtown tom said:
The ATF guy on the phone WAS wrong. No Federal law or Tennessee law prohibits anyone from any state from selling or transferring any firearm in person to an FFL in Tennessee.
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Yes, you know that I knew that. So finding that out isn't why I asked the question.

But what the agent was correct about was that the gun would need to be transferred through an FFL to the recipient.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Well what do you think the ATF agent was wrong about and what was he correct about? Why?
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A Florida resident, so long as he legally transported his own handgun to Tennessee should be able to bring it and any legally eligible Tennessee resident to the FFL in Tennessee and have the transfer performed. While the FFL may require a holding period , and definitely a bound book entry, they should, and should be able to do the transfer.
Others have posted, but, barring some statute citation preventing it, I stand on my original statement.
Finding a TN FFL willing to do it may be a different issue, certainly, but I am not aware of any law preventing it.
 
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armedwalleye said:
...I stand on my original statement....
Click to expand...

But your original statement was, I'm afraid, not helpful.

The ATF agent said two things:

  • George Dickel said:
    ...a live person to answer at the local ATF office and he emphatically stated that the pistols had to go through an FFL in Tennessee because we live in different states....
    Click to expand...

  • George Dickel said:
    ...I asked if I could have given the guns to a Tennessee FFL and have them do the transfer. He stated no, it had to go from an FFL here in Florida to an FFL in Tennessee. He stated an FFL in Tennessee could not legally receive the pistols from me. ...
    Click to expand...

The first answer by the ATF agent was correct, but the second was not.
 
dogtown tom said:
So why ask the question in the first place?
armedwalleye was spot on in his assessment of ATF verbal opinions.
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Being this is Legal, I suspect Frank was looking for a more definitive and defensible position, although I do not presume to soeak for him. In that vein, then, I think the ATF phone answered was correct on the narrow issue of the transfer being needed to be done by a Tennessee FFL. After that, the ATF phone guy isn’t offering opinions that are legally supported.
 
armedwalleye said:
Being this is Legal, I suspect Frank was looking for a more definitive and defensible position, although I do not presume to soeak for him. In that vein, then, I think the ATF phone answered was correct on the narrow issue of the transfer being needed to be done by a Tennessee FFL. After that, the ATF phone guy isn’t offering opinions that are legally supported.
Click to expand...

Yep, and see post 39. The ATF agent wasn't all wrong.
 
George Dickel said:
I kept hearing the same story from all the gun shops that because Tennessee doesn't register gun ownership, that I was his Grandfather gifting it to a relative, and that was the reason I didn't need to go through an FFL. I told them that federal law required it but they kept to the same story about Tennessee not having a gun registry. The only problem with that is should my Grandson sell or trade the firearm and it is used in a crime the ATF will then go to the manufacturer and follow the supply chain down to the store I purchased it from. Then the Feds will knock on my door and want to know how a gun sold to me was used in a crime in Tennessee. All of a sudden me and the Grandson are having the ATF crawling up our backside because I didn't use an FFL to transfer the gun to him. The possibility of this happening is very low but when you are that very small percentage life gets pretty rough and I'm too old to get involved in that kind of situation.
Click to expand...
This is what I call a "low probability, high stakes" scenario. If they (the FFLs who are telling you wrong) need a reference, send them to look at 18 USC 922.
Congress said:
(a) It shall be unlawful-- . . . . (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter; . . . .


(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; . . . .


(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver-- . . . .

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

18 U.S.C.A. § 922 (West)
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