Advice on reduced 30-30 loads

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Bfh_auto said:
Google search Seafire and Blue Dot. I've used his testing for reduced velocity blue dot loads.
15 grains gives about 1700 fps with a 150 grain plated bullet.

Use at your own risk. This is s not pressure tested data. While it's safe in my guns it might not be in yours.
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I have spent a lot of time reading old threads on various forums pertaining to blue dot from a gentleman known as "seafire". Seems to be a lot of info out there. I've managed to find detailed range reports that he posted for 223, 22-250, and 30-06.... I have not found 30-30 specific load data from him but it has certainly made for some interesting reading.
 
Woodbridge said:
I have spent a lot of time reading old threads on various forums pertaining to blue dot from a gentleman known as "seafire". Seems to be a lot of info out there. I've managed to find detailed range reports that he posted for 223, 22-250, and 30-06.... I have not found 30-30 specific load data from him but it has certainly made for some interesting reading.
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If I recall correctly. He started with 7x57 and 223. He used his formula as low as 7.62x39 and I don't recall how far up the Magnum chain he went.
I settled on my charge because it worked acceptably well in 30-30, 30-40, and 8x57.
Remember these are full pressure loads with reduced velocity. Not reduced pressure loads. There is a threshold where it goes from cool to uncontrolled disassembly of your firearm.

Here's another link with a decent amount of related info.
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/2499-30-30-pistol-powder/
 
Red dot works very good up to the point where pressure gets too high. Red Dot has been used a lot for reduced power rifle loads and has a great track record.

The Lyman cast bullet data in a previous post was a great find. A commercial cast bullet from 110 to 150 gr would be good for starting out.

If this is for lever gun, flat points are recommended. I have seen some nice 0.312" 32-20 bullets that should work if you can not find a flat point 0.309" that you like.

If you go with a 150, starting out down at the minimum Lyman load should still be a pretty mild load. Working your way down to a lower charge would be safe if the starting load is more than you wanted (at http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm, they went as low as 4.5 gr for a 170 gr bullet). A big plus with Red Dot will be the minimal muzzle blast.

Blue dot loads can probably be pushed to higher velocities, but there is much less data and much less experience base. Based on the info at the GMDR page above, accuracy seemed to go south when velocities got higher than Red Dot would deliver.
 
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I've been trying out cast/reduced loads for my 30-30 for a while now. Well, I've tried one, I've been researching them for a while now. I'm not so much concerned with the reduced load part, but I want to be able to shoot my Marlin 336 cheaper than 75 cents per shot.

I tried some green cast bullets from Acme Bullet Company in my 9mm and they worked so well I decided to try their red 30 caliber bullets. At the time the only ones available were the 135 grain flat points so I got some of them. I tried them with 2400 powder and had no end of trouble. Keep in mind I was using load data from my Lyman Cast Bullet Manual which only goes down to 150 grain bullets. Starting there and working down I found what I thought was a good load and made about 75. For some reason 2400 doesn't work very well for my rifle. I got heavy leading, cleaned that and reduced the load until things got better. Even then, accuracy was pretty bad, like 3-inch groups at 50 yards.

Based on the cut from Lee's cast bullet data on Page 1 of this thread, today I cautiously tried the same bullet using the minimum charge for a 130 grain cast bullet, which I think is 16 grains of H335, which I have on hand. I am cautiously optimistic about this load. I only loaded 6 rounds, so there's a chance I just got lucky in the shots. I shot 4 at 25 yards, one of which I didn't find until after shooting 3 more. My intent was to shoot 3 at 25 yards and 3 at 50 yards so my results at 50 yards are unconfirmed. That said, the group at 25 yards was about 0.4" center to center for the three shots I found. The 2 remaining shots at 50 yards were about 0.7" apart, essentially keeping the same proportional spread. I had some of the 2400 loads on hand so I shot 2 three shot groups with them at 50 yards. They grouped about 3" at 50 yards in both cases. I've heard 2400 works better with heavier bullets or higher charges. It is very smoky in the reduced 30-30 loads. If I can confirm this load shoots proportionally (1.5" at 100 yards), it will be my new cast load.

The 2400 loads might work better with a heavy crimp as substitute for a heavier bullet. Otherwise I want to pull them, as 2400 shoots so well in my 357 I don't really want to waste it on anything that has given me so much trouble. At this point I could hold a better group at 100 yards with my 357 Blackhawk revolver than my 30-30 rifle using these loads.

I also want to try to replicate the 30-30 miniature with some Winchester 231 powder and these Acme cast bullets.

Also, FWIW, make sure your rifle sights will accommodate the elevation changes that come with significant velocity reductions. I'm using Ranger Point Precision standard peep sights and I don't have enough elevation adjustment to zero them for these cast loads. They work wonderfully for standard 150 grain and 160 grain FTX jacketed bullet loads, but I did hot rod those with Leverevolution and 30+ grains of H335 powder for hunting loads to the point they weren't fun to shoot anymore.
 
DMW1116 said:
I've been trying out cast/reduced loads for my 30-30 for a while now. Well, I've tried one, I've been researching them for a while now. I'm not so much concerned with the reduced load part, but I want to be able to shoot my Marlin 336 cheaper than 75 cents per shot.

I tried some green cast bullets from Acme Bullet Company in my 9mm and they worked so well I decided to try their red 30 caliber bullets. At the time the only ones available were the 135 grain flat points so I got some of them. I tried them with 2400 powder and had no end of trouble. Keep in mind I was using load data from my Lyman Cast Bullet Manual which only goes down to 150 grain bullets. Starting there and working down I found what I thought was a good load and made about 75. For some reason 2400 doesn't work very well for my rifle. I got heavy leading, cleaned that and reduced the load until things got better. Even then, accuracy was pretty bad, like 3-inch groups at 50 yards.

Based on the cut from Lee's cast bullet data on Page 1 of this thread, today I cautiously tried the same bullet using the minimum charge for a 130 grain cast bullet, which I think is 16 grains of H335, which I have on hand. I am cautiously optimistic about this load. I only loaded 6 rounds, so there's a chance I just got lucky in the shots. I shot 4 at 25 yards, one of which I didn't find until after shooting 3 more. My intent was to shoot 3 at 25 yards and 3 at 50 yards so my results at 50 yards are unconfirmed. That said, the group at 25 yards was about 0.4" center to center for the three shots I found. The 2 remaining shots at 50 yards were about 0.7" apart, essentially keeping the same proportional spread. I had some of the 2400 loads on hand so I shot 2 three shot groups with them at 50 yards. They grouped about 3" at 50 yards in both cases. I've heard 2400 works better with heavier bullets or higher charges. It is very smoky in the reduced 30-30 loads. If I can confirm this load shoots proportionally (1.5" at 100 yards), it will be my new cast load.

The 2400 loads might work better with a heavy crimp as substitute for a heavier bullet. Otherwise I want to pull them, as 2400 shoots so well in my 357 I don't really want to waste it on anything that has given me so much trouble. At this point I could hold a better group at 100 yards with my 357 Blackhawk revolver than my 30-30 rifle using these loads.

I also want to try to replicate the 30-30 miniature with some Winchester 231 powder and these Acme cast bullets.

Also, FWIW, make sure your rifle sights will accommodate the elevation changes that come with significant velocity reductions. I'm using Ranger Point Precision standard peep sights and I don't have enough elevation adjustment to zero them for these cast loads. They work wonderfully for standard 150 grain and 160 grain FTX jacketed bullet loads, but I did hot rod those with Leverevolution and 30+ grains of H335 powder for hunting loads to the point they weren't fun to shoot anymore.
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There are a few good powders that work well with cast bullets pretty much universally, comma 2400, 4227, 4198 and unique are all trusested powders I've used. Reloaded 7 is also popular but I haven't used it because I can't find any. 2400 is wonderful in 6.5x55 and 4227 works well in my 308. Just try different ones until you find the best.
 
I see there is a fair bit more data available for heavier bullets than the 135 grain ones I'm using. If further testing reveals this to indeed be less than a 2 MOA load I may just stick with what I've got. The Acme bullets are reasonably inexpensive, and I also like their 9mm 125 grain bullets for my M&P9. If this load proves to be inaccurate like the other load, I'll try some of Missouri Bullet Company's 165 grain flat points sized for Marlin rifles. That way I can take advantage of the different data available for heavier bullets. What would be ideal would be for the "miniature" load with W231 to work well. That would be about as cheap as I could get and still make practicing worth while.
 
I’m looking at making a reduced load using imr4227. I have a pound and a half or so to use. I’m thinking 150 grain bullets.

I also have a lee 311-93-1R that I’m looking at for a very light load. Probably with bullseye. I might work it with unique too if I’m in the notion.

It’s nice to have options.
 
Bazoo said:
I’m looking at making a reduced load using imr4227. I have a pound and a half or so to use. I’m thinking 150 grain bullets.

I also have a lee 311-93-1R that I’m looking at for a very light load. Probably with bullseye. I might work it with unique too if I’m in the notion.

It’s nice to have options.
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That's an excellent cast powder. Check a Lyman manual and you'll find data for it.
I've found fast shotgun powders like Titewad and red dot make great sun sonic loads. Around unique burn rate gives good 12-1400 fps loads.
Around 4227 gives me 18-1900 fps loads.
This is generalized velocity to burn rate. Someone told me this and I've found it to be true most of the time. Light bullets or heavy bullets can change the outcome.
 
Bfh_auto said:
That's an excellent cast powder. Check a Lyman manual and you'll find data for it.
I've found fast shotgun powders like Titewad and red dot make great sun sonic loads. Around unique burn rate gives good 12-1400 fps loads.
Around 4227 gives me 18-1900 fps loads.
This is generalized velocity to burn rate. Someone told me this and I've found it to be true most of the time. Light bullets or heavy bullets can change the outcome.
Click to expand...
In general, if it is known as a magnum handgun powder today then it’s also a good candidate for cast or low recoil jacketed in rifle. Slow pistol (generally) = Fast rifle. Single base powder tends to behave a little better than double base powder when downloaded but that’s not really even a rule of thumb, just a personal observation.
 
I cleaned my 336 tonight after trying the H335 loads yesterday. There appears to be some leading, but I’m not sure if it was from the H335 load or left over from the severe leading I had after the first round of 2400 load testing. I plan to try the W231 “miniature” load that’s floating around the innerwebz and see if I can get a good 5 shot group with these H335 loads. Then I need to decide on a new sight.
 
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GeoDudeFlorida said:
In general, if it is known as a magnum handgun powder today then it’s also a good candidate for cast or low recoil jacketed in rifle. Slow pistol (generally) = Fast rifle. Single base powder tends to behave a little better than double base powder when downloaded but that’s not really even a rule of thumb, just a personal observation.
Click to expand...
Totally agree on both. That's why I primarily run old powder for cast. New powder seems designed to fill a niche and do poorly at anything else.
 
DMW1116 said:
I cleaned my 336 tonight after trying the H335 loads yesterday. There appears to be some leading, but I’m not sure if it was from the H335 load or left over from the severe leading I had after the first round of 2400 load testing. I plan to try the W231 “miniature” load that’s floating around the innerwebz and see if I can get a good 5 shot group with these H335 loads. Then I need to decide on a new sight.
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Get a lead remover solvent. And make sure you don't have copper in there either.
 
I’m going to go ahead and call this a win. I tried some loads with W231 powder ranging from 5.1 to 5.9 grains. I tested them at 50 yards and found a good load that shoots just over 1” at that range. I’d say they are subsonic as well but I had double ear protection on so I’m not sure. I will have to get used to shooting at an aiming target above the actual target or get new sights. They shoot 8” low at 50 yards with the RPP sights set at their maximum height. I haven’t tried them at 100.

Tonight I cleaned the gun and found a little leading but nothing I can’t live with. About 5 passes with a brush and 20 passes with a patch and Hoppes cleaned it up. It wasn’t the 3 session cleaning the first 2400 loads required.

I’ll declare success in my quest to turn my 30-30 into a stout 9mm with much less capacity. 135 grain bullets about 1,100 fps. 9AC98C45-B0B7-461F-ADE7-B528BE6B26CD.jpeg
 
DMW1116 said:
I’m going to go ahead and call this a win. I tried some loads with W231 powder ranging from 5.1 to 5.9 grains. I tested them at 50 yards and found a good load that shoots just over 1” at that range. I’d say they are subsonic as well but I had double ear protection on so I’m not sure. I will have to get used to shooting at an aiming target above the actual target or get new sights. They shoot 8” low at 50 yards with the RPP sights set at their maximum height. I haven’t tried them at 100.

Tonight I cleaned the gun and found a little leading but nothing I can’t live with. About 5 passes with a brush and 20 passes with a patch and Hoppes cleaned it up. It wasn’t the 3 session cleaning the first 2400 loads required.

I’ll declare success in my quest to turn my 30-30 into a stout 9mm with much less capacity. 135 grain bullets about 1,100 fps.View attachment 1067743
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I really like the Williams peep sights. I would recommend getting the rear first and see if the adjustment will correct before investing in a globe for the front. At 50 dollars each you don't want to do it more than once. You may even decide just the rear is good enough.
 
Woodbridge said:
I'm thinking some cast or plated 30 carbine bullets. I've followed Hogdens reduced 4895 advice in the past but currently have stock of red dot and blue dot on hand.
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I'd work around with Blue Dot, 13.5-14gr may be a good start with a 110gr bullet. With a low case fill, powder position maybe a concern. I am just guessing here.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?attachments/001-jpg.221899/
These 150gr plated Xtreme bullets had around a 1600 FPS speed limit, and shot a good 5 1/2" low from a standard load.
I would not put a child behind a untested load, meaning a load without published data.
 
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Ru4real said:
Be careful selecting. You don’t want to make early experiences bad ones. I shot a rabbit in the neck just behind the head small game hunting with my kids once. It died within seconds, but before it died, it cried. My daughter shoots now, 15 years later, but won’t hunt.

A lost animal, weighing on a hunters mind, can be a bad experience.
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I agree, we should teach good kills and not let the animals suffer one second longer.

Here a thought, Put a limb saver on the rifle. Let her get use to it! 30-30 is not too bad in the recoil department. Maybe double up on ears for her first few shots. Or if she’s a tough girl, let her go at it. We can’t make them like what they don’t want to.
 
AJC1 said:
I really like the Williams peep sights. I would recommend getting the rear first and see if the adjustment will correct before investing in a globe for the front. At 50 dollars each you don't want to do it more than once. You may even decide just the rear is good enough.
Click to expand...

Thats the current plan. For my purposes the target knob version would be nice. How much vertical adjustment do they have? I see they have 4 major divisions with 5 lines inside each, but I can’t tell how big they are.
 
AJC1 said:
I really like the Williams peep sights. I would recommend getting the rear first and see if the adjustment will correct before investing in a globe for the front. At 50 dollars each you don't want to do it more than once. You may even decide just the rear is good enough.
Click to expand...

Just to add, I have a Skinner Patridge blade sight on the front already. It’s only 0.052” thick and allows a good sight picture. Not as good as the pyramid topped post on my A4 clone but pretty close.
 
Mark_Mark said:
I agree, we should teach good kills and not let the animals suffer one second longer.

Here a thought, Put a limb saver on the rifle. Let her get use to it! 30-30 is not too bad in the recoil department. Maybe double up on ears for her first few shots. Or if she’s a tough girl, let her go at it. We can’t make them like what they don’t want to.
Click to expand...
I love the Pacmar slip on boots because they are so easy to put on and take off. The issue most times boils down to length of pull for our younger ones.
 
DMW1116 said:
Just to add, I have a Skinner Patridge blade sight on the front already. It’s only 0.052” thick and allows a good sight picture. Not as good as the pyramid topped post on my A4 clone but pretty close.
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I don't know what your sighting picture is but at 20" between them I got .011 inches per moa. That means if you just go up on the rear that puts you an inch higher than now.
 
AJC1 said:
I love the Pacmar slip on boots because they are so easy to put on and take off. The issue most times boils down to length of pull for our younger ones.
Click to expand...
band saw! the little buggers are worth it
 
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