KEL-TEC shipping $200K worth of SUB-2000's to Ukraine

As anticipated..this thread has some legs and wanders a bit (understatement)... My small contribution was to point out that a small concealable sub-gun might be less than what I'd want in a full out war environment - but in war there's always a place for every kind of weapon from a large rock (used with very bad intentions) all the up to the un-thinkable..

Someone has pointed out that this is a "new war" - and with that I take exception.. In fact it's the same exact formula followed in the last world war, dirty, messy, and absolutely destructive of everything civilized (except those proud moments when folks are at their best doing anything they can for the victims...). The forces that attack engage those that defend - and if there's no success there, back off and simply destroy the defender's cities and towns from a safe distance- then go occupy the wasteland that remains - if they can... This is exactly how the Russians did it in WWII - and their savagery against the civilian population hasn't changed a bit either...

Very glad I'm not there and hope our very poor current leaders can find ways to assist the defenders without starting a bigger conflict - and, of course, that's what the attackers are counting on... Just a very bad scene any way you slice it... In fact I'm expecting this to descend into how the Germans described fighting in Warsaw all those years ago - after it was reduced to ruins... "ratten krieg" and if the little german I learned as a kid living there is even close to accurate - it means "rat's war", fought from cellars and destroyed buildings in the rubble that remained...

I’ve seen some video of Ukrainian militia engaged with Russian forces and they look to be pretty well equipped. Some of the technology exceeds anything I was deployed with back in 2005 (and I guess it should, that was a long time ago and I’m a lot older )

I guess my bottom line syndical view on this is the donation of 400 cheap 9mm semi auto range toys benefits Kel-Tec in a PR since a whole lot more than it does to support the war effort in Ukraine

BreechFace said:

Ummmm…the Moldovans might be concerned a bit?

They too are not part of NATO, I’m sure Vlad has a map marking non-NATO countries over there prime for the taking.

I’m all for countries population fighting for their own freedoms especially when they are succeeding. I don’t pretend to know all the geo-political ins and outs, but I can think logically.

A corrupt fledgling democracy needs resources to defend their lands from an aggressor, we’ve seen this CIA data package before as well as the movie script. International aid is often ugly, and unbalanced. I don’t trust Russia, Ukraine or even our own government but helping Ukraine with small arms in my opinion with the facts available is the right thing to do.

And Javelins, stingers and small arms are doing a number at making Russian army look weak outside of their big stick which is the threat of nukes.

So if Keltec supplies some more arms pointing north than I say good on Keltec. If I were a Ukrainian civilian I would like a sub-2000 to supplement my molatovs.

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Hey, Kel-Tec is free to do what they want. I had a Gen 1 S2K and it was a great gun. Overall Kel-Tec is an innovative company that sells some interesting and unique weapons. I only sold it because I got a nice profit for it and I had a 9mm carbine that suited me a bit better.

But I gotta disagree when you talk of our government arming the Ukrainians. No doubt the Ukrainians would have been mopped up already without our help. But we have to think more than one chess move / quarter ahead. We are dumping Stinger missiles, Javelins, and billions of dollars into that horribly corrupt country. No matter how this ends many, those weapons will probably end up in the wrong hands at some point. What happens when some of those stingers are used by terrorists to blow up a jumbo jet? If you think there aren't Ukrainians who won't sell those for profit, you would be kidding yourself. Overall it seems like a dumb move considering that Russia could destroy Ukraine without sending in a single soldier. Russia only loses if they do not have the will to fight, and that is a matter for history to decide rather than our own media pumping out Ukrainian propaganda to protect our own corrupt commander-in-chief. I will not propagate those lies or support any entity that does their bidding, personally.

EDIT: Oh and we have cities with larger populations than Moldovia. Pretty sure they don't really matter all that much in the bigger picture and pretty much any country could conquer them if they wanted to. No country has an inherit right to exist, it must be able to protect itself. That is history of humanity.

someguy2800 said:

What if a bunch of the little countries were to join together and pool their resources to purchase military equipment and train together to become more proficient than they otherwise could by themselves? Then they could sign a defensive treaty with each other to the effect that if you attack one you attack them all to provide an effective deterrent against large aggressive neighbors. They could call it a Treaty Organization and name it after the nearest ocean. Maybe create a catchy acronym for it.

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That is real cute. But NATO after WWII was largely the creation of the USA. Not a small, weak country. It was organized to stop the communist Soviet Union, which collapsed over 30 years ago. Still it expanded to 13 countries afterward. Why? Oh maybe to sell some small countries protection with weapons and equipment contracts... Or maybe to expand US prestige. But it doesn't really matter because without the USA, NATO is nothing and they don't spend anything on their own defense. They have outsourced their defense to the US taxpayer, for a small fee to our elites. Enjoy that treaty.

Domino said:

That is real cute. But NATO after WWII was largely the creation of the USA. Not a small, weak country. It was organized to stop the communist Soviet Union, which collapsed over 30 years ago. Still it expanded to 13 countries afterward. Why? Oh maybe to sell some small countries protection with weapons and equipment contracts... Or maybe to expand US prestige. But it doesn't really matter because without the USA, NATO is nothing and they don't spend anything on their own defense. They have outsourced their defense to the US taxpayer, for a small fee to our elites. Enjoy that treaty.

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Worth noting thats the actual, legitimate origin of "world wars".

I appreciate Keltec for helping Ukraine help themselves. Keltec didn't have to do it and I bear them no ill felling for releasing a statement saying that they did. Maybe it will encourage other companies to make simular donations. It is only 400 guns BUT that is 400 more than the Ukrainians had last week to defend themselves with. I have never owned a sub 2000 but always kind of liked them. I don't believe it would be my first choice for a weapon to take to war but it would also be far from me last choice.

Good job Keltec!

Nature Boy said:

The Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in the early 90’s when the Soviet Union collapsed.

These moral equivalence arguments are just intellectually lazy and full of logic flaws. The premise you paint exists nowhere but in your own imagination.

The “Warsaw Pact” is/was not the same as NATO, and therefore, using that premise to draw a hypothetical “what if” parallel between Ukraine and Ireland is plain silliness.

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How many countries asked to join the Warsaw Pact? Countries actually want to join NATO so they don't have to be Warsaw Pact members.

I see two countries with policy disagreements. Then the bigger country decides to shoot missiles into theaters full of kids, killing 300. It attacks 64 hospitals. What more do you need to know? Send them the arms they need to defend themselves. As far as the guns themselves, that's what Kel-Tec makes, do they get PR - so what. Having seen a Kel-tec 223 break in half, I'd pass on their other guns.

someguy2800 said:

I do enjoy it, as do you. We pay for it but also reap the benefits of not having a European continent controlled by the Soviet Union.

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The Soviet Union does not exist anymore, it's a rather important distinction. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union so this war would not be happening if the Soviet Union still existed. You are probably referring to the Russian Federation which is not even a communist country.

Also, I couldn't care less about what happens in Europe, it has no bearing on the USA. We are safe and protected across the ocean. No country could ever invade us now, not even Russia or China. So no I don't think we get much of anything from NATO, but the Europeans are getting the deal of the century!!! You need to ask yourself a serious question, do you really think the other NATO countries would come to our aid if we really needed it? Not likely... which makes the treaty largely worthless to us...

hso said:

It was perfectly clear if you listened to the interview that KelTec donated the $200,000 of carbines to the Ukranian government after the Ukranian importer could not be reached after the invasion began.

They've shipped the carbines to the Ukranian government with no idea if anyone will ever pay KelTec or not.

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I read the article I didn’t listen to the audio. Bad manners to watch a video at your computer in the office where 8 other people can hear that it doesn’t sound like Microsoft Excel

I have to admit that I am a bit surprised on a gun forum that members are mad about guns being sent to a country under attack by Russia.

I am not sure where this thread is going, but I think it is important to remember that these rifles were not adopted by the Ukraine government as a front line weapon. They will hopefully supplement some of the unarmed civilians and perhaps provide a means to acquire Russian armament. The S2K's work and I hope a few get the opportunity to be pointed at Russians.

Domino said:

The Soviet Union does not exist anymore, it's a rather important distinction. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union so this war would not be happening if the Soviet Union still existed. You are probably referring to the Russian Federation which is not even a communist country.

Also, I couldn't care less about what happens in Europe, it has no bearing on the USA. We are safe and protected across the ocean. No country could ever invade us now, not even Russia or China. So no I don't think we get much of anything from NATO, but the Europeans are getting the deal of the century!!! You need to ask yourself a serious question, do you really think the other NATO countries would come to our aid if we really needed it? Not likely... which makes the treaty largely worthless to us...

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From the History channel link below:

"On September 12, 2001, the day after the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center and Pentagon, NATO invoked Article 5 for the first time in its history, committing its members to stand by the United States in its response to the attacks."

"In addition to participation in the war in Afghanistan, NATO’s response to the 9/11 attacks under Article 5 included Operation Eagle Assist, in which NATO aircraft helped patrol the skies over the United States for seven months between 2001 and 2002, and Operation Active Endeavour, in which NATO naval forces were sent to perform counterterrorism activities in the Eastern Mediterranean. Operation Active Endeavour, which began in October 2001 and later expanded to the entire Mediterranean region, didn’t conclude until 2016."

https://www.history.com/news/nato-article-5-meaning-history-world-war-2


Prince Harry himself fought in America's war in Afghanistan.

I'll add that one of the biggest dangers for Americans is losing the psychological war, which Russia and China have always been good at waging. The idea that America has no use for Europe and vice versa is right out of Russia's propaganda playbook to divide and conquer.

~Beck

someguy2800 said:

I just saw this in a clip on YouTube. I bet these guys would be thrilled to get sub2000’s lol

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The civilian volunters are being trained muzzle discipline and trigger discipline and getting accustomed to carrying and maneuvering with something with the size and bulk of an AK, before being issued one.

Check out "List of equipment of Ukrainian ground forces" at Wikipedia. Looks like they use every gun ever made in any NATO or Eastern Bloc cartridge. Mainstay is the AK74, secondary the AKM.

NATO countries that were formerly Eastern Bloc are donating their reserve AKs by the thousands (I bet Ukraine need cosmoline remover).

Ukraine had started making UAR-15 in 5.56x45mm as more ergonomic and accurate than the AKs. They even list M14 in 7.62x51.

Domino said:

The Soviet Union does not exist anymore, it's a rather important distinction. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union so this war would not be happening if the Soviet Union still existed. You are probably referring to the Russian Federation which is not even a communist country.

Also, I couldn't care less about what happens in Europe, it has no bearing on the USA. We are safe and protected across the ocean. No country could ever invade us now, not even Russia or China. So no I don't think we get much of anything from NATO, but the Europeans are getting the deal of the century!!! You need to ask yourself a serious question, do you really think the other NATO countries would come to our aid if we really needed it? Not likely... which makes the treaty largely worthless to us...

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I am guessing you would have been a big Lindbergh fan in 1940-41. Well, I guess someone has to espouse appeasement. Not that history offers any lessons . . .

Anyway, kudos to Kel Tec. I might prefer something with a bit more muzzle velocity, but 9mm did a lot of damage in urban fighting in WW2.The lightweight portability and foldability is definitely worth something to folks on the run.

Crosshair said:

Since the Ukrainian government is getting them, and they're not a standard adopted weapon, it's basically guaranteed they'll be listed as "distributed" and promptly sold off by some official to whatever black market organization that wants them.

Not to be cynical, but it will probably be Easten European gangs/cartels who get them.

Kel-Tec will likely never see a penny.

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That was about as cynical as it gets.

kidneyboy said:

Cynics are less likely to be sheep.

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And more likely to be manipulated by conspiracy theorists.

Newtosavage said:

That was about as cynical as it gets.

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Not only cynical, but data-free speculation.

Newtosavage said:

And more likely to be manipulated by conspiracy theorists.

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Real cynics are cynical about everything, even conspiracy theories.

Domino said:

. . .But I gotta disagree when you talk of our government arming the Ukrainians. No doubt the Ukrainians would have been mopped up already without our help. But we have to think more than one chess move / quarter ahead. We are dumping Stinger missiles, Javelins, and billions of dollars into that horribly corrupt country. No matter how this ends many, those weapons will probably end up in the wrong hands at some point. What happens when some of those stingers are used by terrorists to blow up a jumbo jet? If you think there aren't Ukrainians who won't sell those for profit, you would be kidding yourself. Overall it seems like a dumb move considering that Russia could destroy Ukraine without sending in a single soldier. Russia only loses if they do not have the will to fight, and that is a matter for history to decide rather than our own media pumping out Ukrainian propaganda to protect our own corrupt commander-in-chief. I will not propagate those lies or support any entity that does their bidding, personally.

EDIT: Oh and we have cities with larger populations than Moldovia. Pretty sure they don't really matter all that much in the bigger picture and pretty much any country could conquer them if they wanted to. No country has an inherit right to exist, it must be able to protect itself. That is history of humanity.

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That is some real might-makes-right logic right there. Genghis Khan would have loved chatting with you about the right of countries to exist. Or individuals, even.

The rest of your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since that logic applies to any weapon in the possession of any institution or individual ever. Anything can be misused. You sound like a gun control advocate arguing against civilian ownership of ARs.