Which New Deer and Antelope Rifle?

Status
Not open for further replies.
westernrover said:
Scheels has the PH2's in stock. I will go look at them. What's good about it? I didn't know anything about them. I just learned they're made in Idaho and come with Timney triggers. It looks like they're light enough. 90 degree bolt throw. I hope that doesn't hit my scope.
Click to expand...

As a hunting rifle, you’re getting a huge value for the money. It’s a Rock Creek barrel, Timney trigger, glass bedded lightweight stock (although I like the original McMillan Game Warden on the PH1 better than the PH2’s injection molded carbon fiber reinforced polymer stock) with their adjustable length bottom metal, and their custom action. The Havak action is headspace controlled for easy barrel changes, and the new PH2 bolt offers tool-less takedown. It’s not a top end action, but when you buy a complete Havak rifle, you’re getting their action for only a few hundred dollars in cost when accounting for the other components. They seem to be running $1700 ballpark these days, and considering a $350 Rock Creek Barrel, $300 for threading and chambering, $200 for bottom metal, $160 for the Timney trigger, there’s only $700 left on the stock, magazine, and action, so you’re getting a better action than big brand factory actions for around half the typical cost of a custom action.

Something fun about the Havak for me - which I just started playing with this fall - is that the Havak’s offer interchangeable bolt heads and controlled headspace, so I can swap between a heavy barrel in 6 creed for match season, then a carbon fiber barrel in 6.5 PRC for hunting.
 
Another Tikka fan here. I have owned and shot many rifles. My current favorite is a Tikka T3 stainless steel in 7-08. with a muzzle brake. Near ideal hunting rifle and sub MOA, out of box. Upgrade would be Sako. People on here hate Remington but I have had excellent accuracy and reliability from several. Last one was sub MOA from 3 years ago but can't vouch for the new ones or the many clones but others on here are more knowledgeable than I am. If I were doing the buying it would be Tikka, Stainless steel or whatever suits you. Heavy barrels and elaborate stocks are more hindrance than help for me.
 
I would also concur Tikka ,Sako , Savage or possibly a Savanna by Mauser , somewhat surprised no one mentioned Savage model 12 ?.
The latter being an extremely accurate Rifle ,granted isn't the most attractive firearm made but certainly more than capable of F class accuracy .

I still own #3 out of those #4 ,along with a 3000L Mauser in 7 RM . IF it were I ,caliber 6.5 CM or .308 .
 
bihj said:
I would have to at least look at what CZ had to offer.
By far the best factory trigger I have ever pulled came on a very accurate 527 I have.
Click to expand...


I really like the triggers on old CZ 527’s and 550’s. Unfortunately CZ has changed their lineup, and no longer manufactures either of these rifles or triggers.
 
The OP has stated that he wants something not only accurate out of the box but some high quality. Many mass produced rifles can be good or be a project. Some are known for poor stocks, magazine issues or spotty QC.
 
Your budget is generous enough that you have lots of choices. Tikka, Savage and CZ all have a good rep for accuracy. There are many more expensive options that still fall within your budget. Good Luck in your choice.
 
The new Howa Carbon fiber threaded HS barreled and stocked rifle in 6.5 PRC impressed me alot a couple months ago at a range my son and I were shooting at. The guy next to us had one and a good scope and mount and was getting 200 yard groups of around 1" where he zeroed it ! Having used a Winchester Model 70 Westerner in .264 Win Mag for 40+ years as a dedicated long range antelope , caribou and sheep and open country deer I found it a modern slight upgrade of he concept. The 6.5 PRC is a real zoomer of a 6.5 and the carbon fiber barrel brings great accuracy with lighter weight . The new Howa trigger was set at just under three pounds and super crisp ! The Kryptic Stock was a looker and the HS aluminmchassis is a trouble free way to go, Guy said he was into it about $1400 .
https://www.howausa.com/rifles/carbon-fiber/
CarbonFiberViasProductImage.png



Actually looking into it the one we saw and handled was this model which uses a Stocky Kevlar stock : but it was painted factory Kryptic:
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/how...fiber-stock-black-finish/FC-682146321739.html
 
Last edited:
Our youngest grandson got himself a Tikka (6.5CM) last year. I don't know what model it is (or even if there are different Tikka models) but he likes it real well.
I went with him when he was sighting it in, and from everything I saw, it was plenty accurate. And it didn't kick very hard at all. It will probably be great for mule deer and antelope. :thumbup:
 
I would buy a Weatherby Mark V 6.5 RPM and top it with a Tract scope

https://tractoptics.com/riflescopes/toric-30mm-hunting-scopes

https://weatherby.com/store/markv-weathermark/

Overall Length: 44.5”

Length of Pull: 13.625"

Weight: 6.25

Barrel Length & Contour: 24” #1

Action / Barrel OAL: RH 24”

Twist Rate: 1-8”

Mag Capacity: 4+1

Monte Carlo: .625"

Drop @ Comb: .875”

Drop @ Heel: 1.625"

SKU: MWM01N65RWR4T

UPC: 747115441051

$1,699.00

Leupold Backcountry Mounts:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019633534
 
We checked out rifles today.

We were able to see a half-dozen or so Seekins PH2 in various chamberings and colorways. I gave this one particular consideration because of Varmintterror's advice. I've read enough on here to be of the opinion that his commentary when it comes to rifles deserves some weight. I formed my own opinion of it from only handling it - not actually getting to shoot it - but witheld any comment until I heard my son's opinion. He was able to compare it directly, side by side with a Tikka T3X Lite and the T3X with the camo/cerakote and fluted bolt/threaded muzzle. He didn't like the Seekins' palm swells and the hard plastic texture of the stock. It wasn't as light as the Tikkas either, which could be detected even without a scale. He preferred the Tikka. I showed him the details on the bolt face, the claw extractor, plunger ejector and the two rows of dual lugs, and contrasted them to the Tikka's dual lugs and smaller extractor. We also compared a Ruger American with the tri-lugs and tiny extractor. Then I shared my opinion about the Seekins. I was indifferent about the palm swells. The one in my hand felt fine, but the opposite side was odd against my fingers. I agreed the hard plastic stock felt poor and could see that it was not as stiff as some reviewers promised. The 90 degree bolt worries me. I'm willing to deal with it on a Mauser action like a 98, a Winchester, or a CZ becase I have to, but I worry that it will force me to mount the scope higher than I want. I used a slimmer old-school Leupold ocular on the 70 and on the CZ the bolt handle slides against the ocular of the Z5. It rubs the bluing off the bolt handle but has not marked the scope. I think maybe it just rubs on the rubber eye cup, but it's a close shave. Admittedly, the Seekin's real value is in the barrel and trigger, so I shouldn't be surprised to be disappointed by the stock and we didn't even get to do anything with the best parts of the deal.

At another store we were able to check out the Benelli and compare it directly to the Tikka Super Lite. My son liked the features on the Benelli like the soft comb and the recoil-taming device in the butt. This was enough of a turn-on to cause him to prefer it to the Tikka. We noticed it was heavier. It has a tri-lug like the Ruger American, but the extractor is a little more robust looking. I noticed that the bolt handle snaps down when it's closed. It's not as smooth as the Tikka's bolt. To me, the Tikka bolts feel loose. They're smooth in the sense they don't bind or feel gritty, but they feel sloppy compared to a good Mauser-style action that feels pressing oil on glass.

We also checked out a used Weatherby Mark V. It was Paso Robles made with a composite stock, fluted barrel. I think it was a Hunter model or similar to that. Althought it was being sold as used, it appeared like-new. There was a little wear on the bluing of the bolt, but the receiver, stock, and barrel exterior were flawless. My son noticed it was light. I showed my son the two rows of three lugs on the bolt. The bolt was smooth. The price on this used rifle was comparable to a new Benelli. It seemed to me like a good rifle for the money -- something I'd normally expect to pay a few hundred more for. Admittedly, I would have been a lot more attracted to the older Weatherbys in the glass case it came out of, but wasn't looking at those. I think for my son, the Mark V just lacked the turn ons it had for me.

I mentioned earlier that I wasn't about to find an S20 to handle in person, but that's another I've asked him to consider. I know the pistol-grip/thumbhole stock is a turn-on for him. I did explain why thumbholes are sometimes preferred by varminters and showed him traditional examples. I also explained the similarities of the S20's pistol grip to AR-15 style furniture. An AR-15 in a chambering suitable for deer or an AR-10 are options he has, but there are drawbacks there. The barrel lengths that are best suited for deer hunting aren't what has made the 15 popular, and the 10 is usually a heavy gun for the kind of steep, 10,500' mountains we hunt in. I didn't rule them out, but remember that we're looking for sub-MOA accuracy out-of-the-box and we'll be hunting Saturday morning and could use it as early as then, so we're not looking for a project right now.

I'll see what he decides in a day or two.
 
He chose the Benelli Lupo. I like Benelli shotguns, and I thought this was an excellent choice for a rifle in an aluminum chassis with polymer furniture. The cerakote-like finish is easy to care for. The dbm works well and allows single-feed or loading from the top. It's a bit on the heavy side, but it's good because he's a little reactive to recoil. It is in 6.5 Creedmoor. I might have bought a 6 Creedmoor if it could have been had, but the 6.5 will always have more abundant ammo and component availability. He's had it out a couple times and shot some 1" groups at 100 yards, and today he hit small plates at 200 and 300 yards with one shot each. We haven't been able to shoot it a lot after zeroing it.

I don't have the dies or components for it yet. That will have to wait until next year. I bought five boxes of Federal AE and it just sucks in this gun. Very frustrating. It groups 5" at 100 yards. As soon as I dared to switch to the Barnes LRX ammo he'll hunt with, groups shrank to 1" or 0.9". We've shot a box of it ($50) and it's been consistently that accurate. The factory target the rifle came with shows 0.98". I don't see this being a half-MOA rifle, but it's good enough for hunting. My boy shot half the box of Barnes and about 15 of the AE. He'll will shoot it more as the month goes on, but I don't know what to do about the ammo. The Federal stuff really ruins the experience. We can keep shooting Barnes at $2.50 per shot, or I can pick up some Hornady American Whitetail for $29.

The only thing I dislike about this rifle is the safety is loud and there doesn't seem to be a way to quiet it with the finger. I don't mind a safety that clicks if I can mute it with the finger, but this one snaps no matter what. Very lame on a hunting rifle.

The trigger on this rifle is awesome -- absolutely nothing left to be desired. It's adjustable, but I didn't have to change anything.

The rifle has shim spacers to allow for additional length of pull, and to increase or decrease the amount of drop at heel and even to add left or right-hand cast. I set it up with minimum drop at heel and right-hand cast. I chose minimum drop at heel to get the scope down, minimize muzzle rise, and because he's most likely to hunt from the bipod in prone or a similar position. I think more drop at heel would be better for standing shots, but we're not doing those as we hunt open mountains in the 180-240 yard range.

The Z5 scope is a good match for this rifle. It fit well with "low" aluminum Leupold rings. I like this scope with the ballistic turret (dial). Optically, it suffers from chromatic aberration. I sent it back to Swarovski and they said they fixed it, but it still has harsh color fringing on bright (white) targets, especially off-axis or on-axis at the highest magnifications (12x).

We scouted last weekend, and are heading out at midnight to hunt a couple days. We'll get in a longer trip toward the end of the month. Our unit is only about 200 miles away this year, so it's too tempting to get out there every weekend. We'll probably burn up $1100 in fuel by the end of the month. Last year, the unit was 400 miles away, so we only made one trip and stayed a couple weeks.
 
DSCN0225-Copy.jpg DSCN0229-Copy.jpg

Took it out this weekend. We climbed a rocky hill (not in the photos) and found some deer below us.
Altogether, there were seven does and one buck. The buck was a 3x3 with a tall but narrow rack. They were 400 yards away and we couldn't get any closer without going off the cliff. It would take us a while to circle around and come down on them from the rocky peak behind them. We decided to wait and see what they would do. By 9:00, they had bedded down. We decided to go down and come at them from the ridge behind them, but we did not have any way to keep track of exactly where they were. When we made the ridge, my son traversed about a hundred yards toward the deers' position. He flushed two does that had been bedded down about 90 yards in front of him. We glassed and waited, but did not see the buck again. He was probably sitting tight and we could not find him unless we beat every bush on that mountain side. We gave up and started hiking back after 11.

In the afternoon, we tried scouting up other canyons we had not been in before. We didn't get very far before there was a heavy tree that had fallen across the road. I carry a handsaw, but this would have taken more than an hour to clear, so we went elsewhere. We drove up a different canyon until we got to a Forest Service road closure notice and the overgrowth became impassable for anything taller than an ATV. Along this route to this point, we found fresh track in the mud, but did not see any deer in the late afternoon and early evening. I proposed camping and hunting the closed portion of the road on foot in the morning, but my son wanted to go back to the first spot where we had seen deer and set up above the creek before light.

At about 5AM, we started down from the hill (it's 9000') that overlooks the creek. From the hilltop, it's at least 600 yards down into the creek, so we hiked down to a single mahogany tree that overlooks the creek about a hundred yards above it. As we were hiking down in the dark, there were some deer bedded down on our left. About an hour later when there was enough light to see, we could see the deer had already moved down the creek and were making their way up the other side. One doe was still down in the creek drinking about 200 yards to our left, and four other deer were higher up the other side. They were all does. That was all the time we had for the weekend.
 
Glad you found a rifle you like and thanks for the range report. Good information. I also enjoyed reading about your hunt. Keep posting. I am fighting the urge to buy another rifle. Can't have too many. I am thinking Tikka but still open to other nice rifles.
 
westernrover said:
He chose the Benelli Lupo. I like Benelli shotguns, and I thought this was an excellent choice for a rifle in an aluminum chassis with polymer furniture. The cerakote-like finish is easy to care for. The dbm works well and allows single-feed or loading from the top. It's a bit on the heavy side, but it's good because he's a little reactive to recoil. It is in 6.5 Creedmoor. I might have bought a 6 Creedmoor if it could have been had, but the 6.5 will always have more abundant ammo and component availability. He's had it out a couple times and shot some 1" groups at 100 yards, and today he hit small plates at 200 and 300 yards with one shot each. We haven't been able to shoot it a lot after zeroing it.

I don't have the dies or components for it yet. That will have to wait until next year. I bought five boxes of Federal AE and it just sucks in this gun. Very frustrating. It groups 5" at 100 yards. As soon as I dared to switch to the Barnes LRX ammo he'll hunt with, groups shrank to 1" or 0.9". We've shot a box of it ($50) and it's been consistently that accurate. The factory target the rifle came with shows 0.98". I don't see this being a half-MOA rifle, but it's good enough for hunting. My boy shot half the box of Barnes and about 15 of the AE. He'll will shoot it more as the month goes on, but I don't know what to do about the ammo. The Federal stuff really ruins the experience. We can keep shooting Barnes at $2.50 per shot, or I can pick up some Hornady American Whitetail for $29.

The only thing I dislike about this rifle is the safety is loud and there doesn't seem to be a way to quiet it with the finger. I don't mind a safety that clicks if I can mute it with the finger, but this one snaps no matter what. Very lame on a hunting rifle.

The trigger on this rifle is awesome -- absolutely nothing left to be desired. It's adjustable, but I didn't have to change anything.

The rifle has shim spacers to allow for additional length of pull, and to increase or decrease the amount of drop at heel and even to add left or right-hand cast. I set it up with minimum drop at heel and right-hand cast. I chose minimum drop at heel to get the scope down, minimize muzzle rise, and because he's most likely to hunt from the bipod in prone or a similar position. I think more drop at heel would be better for standing shots, but we're not doing those as we hunt open mountains in the 180-240 yard range.

The Z5 scope is a good match for this rifle. It fit well with "low" aluminum Leupold rings. I like this scope with the ballistic turret (dial). Optically, it suffers from chromatic aberration. I sent it back to Swarovski and they said they fixed it, but it still has harsh color fringing on bright (white) targets, especially off-axis or on-axis at the highest magnifications (12x).

We scouted last weekend, and are heading out at midnight to hunt a couple days. We'll get in a longer trip toward the end of the month. Our unit is only about 200 miles away this year, so it's too tempting to get out there every weekend. We'll probably burn up $1100 in fuel by the end of the month. Last year, the unit was 400 miles away, so we only made one trip and stayed a couple weeks.
Click to expand...



I must say I'm Very surprised with this statement " Very frustrating. It groups 5" at 100 yards. As soon as I dared to switch to the Barnes LRX ammo he'll hunt with, groups shrank to 1" or 0.9". We've shot a box of it ($50) and it's been consistently that accurate. The factory target the rifle came with shows 0.98". I don't see this being a half-MOA rifle, but it's good enough for hunting."

That's more than a little strange IMO ,as ammo making 1- 2" group differences I can digest but 4" WOW !.

If I might suggest something ; Shoot some inexpensive fodder a couple of boxes of Norma 6.5 CM Golden Target and Whitetail and see what that does for Your accuracy . Personally I'd shoot a half box each ,then Clean the snot out of it and repeat . I'm most curious as to where it's accuracy would be at that point .

The unit on the right is an Aero build 6.5 CM and out of the gate with Golden Target Norma is 1.25 Moa without even trying ,as in first #5 shots .
I'm every bit confident it will become a sub moa with proper loading and recoil is Nil . Good Luck perseverance will prevail :)
 

Attachments

  • Rifles 308 AR 10 Platforms.jpg
    Rifles 308 AR 10 Platforms.jpg
    92.6 KB · Views: 4
I recently looked at a NIB Lupo rifle by Benelli. It has the old two piece stock style likw a shotgun or SMLE. That plastic stock is like the SBE and pretty plain polymer. That bolt is unique. Definitely a free floating barrel. Credit the Italians for keeping it interesting.
 
BushMaster-15 said:
I must say I'm Very surprised with this statement " Very frustrating. It groups 5" at 100 yards. As soon as I dared to switch to the Barnes LRX ammo he'll hunt with, groups shrank to 1" or 0.9". We've shot a box of it ($50) and it's been consistently that accurate. The factory target the rifle came with shows 0.98". I don't see this being a half-MOA rifle, but it's good enough for hunting."

That's more than a little strange IMO ,as ammo making 1- 2" group differences I can digest but 4" WOW !.

If I might suggest something ; Shoot some inexpensive fodder a couple of boxes of Norma 6.5 CM Golden Target and Whitetail and see what that does for Your accuracy . Personally I'd shoot a half box each ,then Clean the snot out of it and repeat . I'm most curious as to where it's accuracy would be at that point .

The unit on the right is an Aero build 6.5 CM and out of the gate with Golden Target Norma is 1.25 Moa without even trying ,as in first #5 shots .
I'm every bit confident it will become a sub moa with proper loading and recoil is Nil . Good Luck perseverance will prevail :)
Click to expand...

Curious as to how your accuracy ( POA vs. POI ) was. Tight groups ( precision ) are nice and we all like to shoot them, but they don`t do you much good in a hunting rifle if they are way off from your aiming point. With my hunting rifles, I don`t worry as much about group size as I do how accurately the rifle is shooting.
 
BushMaster-15 said:
...If I might suggest something ; Shoot some inexpensive fodder a couple of boxes of Norma 6.5 CM Golden Target and Whitetail and see what that does for Your accuracy . Personally I'd shoot a half box each ,then Clean the snot out of it and repeat . I'm most curious as to where it's accuracy would be at that point ....
Click to expand...

I don't know why the American Eagle is so wild in the POI with this rifle. I was using a Caldwell Rock BR front rest and Protektor rear bag and shooting off a steel bench at the range. Three different people shot this rifle and had the same results. It grouped well with the Barnes ammo and very, very poorly with the Federal. I bought the AE ammo just because it was the only ammo that was $30/box vs. $50/box at the store, but I've seen 6.5 Creedmoor ammo tests online that show the Federal AE ammo group very tightly, so I'm not inclined to say the ammo is the poorest quality. We've put more than a box of the ammo through the barrel and then cleaned it. I clean the carbon out with M-Pro 7, and then I'll clean out copper with Hoppes #9 or Boretech Cu +2 depending on how much I want to remove. I figure it will be most accurate with a little gilding on there. If I were to shoot hundreds of rounds, I'd get out the Boretech, but we haven't shot it that much yet. After shooting and cleaning it, it hasn't impressed me with the Federal AE ammo yet. I hope to pick up that Hornady American Whitetail at $29/box and see how it goes. Right now, we're hunting while we can. Maybe in November I can do more at the range.

mshootnit said:
I recently looked at a NIB Lupo rifle by Benelli. It has the old two piece stock style likw a shotgun or SMLE. That plastic stock is like the SBE and pretty plain polymer. That bolt is unique. Definitely a free floating barrel. Credit the Italians for keeping it interesting.
Click to expand...

It is a two piece stock, but it also has an aluminum chassis. The barrel and receiver are steel, but they fit into an aluminum frame and the buttstock and fore-end attach to that. If you look at this picture, you'll see it's really more like a three-piece stock:

st-benelli-lupo-8.jpg

At the top are the steel receiver and free-float barrel.
At the bottom are the fore-end bolted to the aluminum frame, and the buttstock also attached to the center aluminum frame via a long stud.

Turkeytider said:
Curious as to how your accuracy ( POA vs. POI ) was. Tight groups ( precision ) are nice and we all like to shoot them, but they don`t do you much good in a hunting rifle if they are way off from your aiming point. With my hunting rifles, I don`t worry as much about group size as I do how accurately the rifle is shooting.
Click to expand...

After I zeroed the scope, I took it to the range another day and fired a shot with a cold bore. The elevation was right on, but I corrected the windage about 1 MOA. I worked on other rifles for more than an hour, and then fired another cold bore shot. It was within a quarter MOA of the bullseye. I'll continue to check this, but it's going to take some time.
 
westernrover said:
I don't know why the American Eagle is so wild in the POI with this rifle. I was using a Caldwell Rock BR front rest and Protektor rear bag and shooting off a steel bench at the range. Three different people shot this rifle and had the same results. It grouped well with the Barnes ammo and very, very poorly with the Federal. I bought the AE ammo just because it was the only ammo that was $30/box vs. $50/box at the store, but I've seen 6.5 Creedmoor ammo tests online that show the Federal AE ammo group very tightly, so I'm not inclined to say the ammo is the poorest quality. We've put more than a box of the ammo through the barrel and then cleaned it. I clean the carbon out with M-Pro 7, and then I'll clean out copper with Hoppes #9 or Boretech Cu +2 depending on how much I want to remove. I figure it will be most accurate with a little gilding on there. If I were to shoot hundreds of rounds, I'd get out the Boretech, but we haven't shot it that much yet. After shooting and cleaning it, it hasn't impressed me with the Federal AE ammo yet. I hope to pick up that Hornady American Whitetail at $29/box and see how it goes. Right now, we're hunting while we can. Maybe in November I can do more at the range.



It is a two piece stock, but it also has an aluminum chassis. The barrel and receiver are steel, but they fit into an aluminum frame and the buttstock and fore-end attach to that. If you look at this picture, you'll see it's really more like a three-piece stock:

View attachment 1108546

At the top are the steel receiver and free-float barrel.
At the bottom are the fore-end bolted to the aluminum frame, and the buttstock also attached to the center aluminum frame via a long stud.



After I zeroed the scope, I took it to the range another day and fired a shot with a cold bore. The elevation was right on, but I corrected the windage about 1 MOA. I worked on other rifles for more than an hour, and then fired another cold bore shot. It was within a quarter MOA of the bullseye. I'll continue to check this, but it's going to take some time.
Click to expand...

Obviously, with a hunting rifle, performance on a cold bore shot is pretty critical. Sounds like that gun`s a shooter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
Best all-around rifle for hunting deer, pronghorn/antelope in west Texas?
2
Replies
30
Views
6K
d2wing
d2wing
G
  • Locked
new deer rifle
Replies
19
Views
695
Outlaws
O
G
  • Locked
which rifle...multiple choice
2 3
Replies
57
Views
2K
gspn
G
D
  • Locked
new deer rifle?
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
Davek1977
D
Macchina
  • Locked
223 for deer: never again!
2 3 4
Replies
90
Views
6K
Robert
Robert
Back
Top