For defensive purposes perhaps Red Dot sights are pointless?

starling said:

Good to know. I have never heard anything about cold temps effecting lasers (which I use a bit on pistols for night time carry). Thank you

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Pretty sure it's just green lasers that are intolerant of cold weather and it may be that not all green lasers are affected the same way but, apparently, there's something about the green laser diode that makes them less tolerant of cold weather. I have read that most green lasers will, at the very least, get dim in the cold but both of these crimson trace green lasers got dim and then never got bright again once they were warmed back up even after replacing the batteries. A red dot sight seems like it might not be as susceptible to this problem but I'd probably want to leave one out in my truck overnight this winter just to see. I really like the idea of them. I know they provide a huge advantage at the range and in competition, but I'd like to see how they do in extreme cold weather conditions. The FN FNX I'm currently looking at has a vortex red dot on it and that is allegedly a combat weapon so it ought to be subjected to some combat conditions just to see how it handles it.

redcon1 said:

Pretty sure it's just green lasers that are intolerant of cold weather and it may be that not all green lasers are affected the same way but, apparently, there's something about the green laser diode that makes them less tolerant of cold weather. I have read that most green lasers will, at the very least, get dim in the cold but both of these crimson trace green lasers got dim and then never got bright again once they were warmed back up even after replacing the batteries. A red dot sight seems like it might not be as susceptible to this problem but I'd probably want to leave one out in my truck overnight this winter just to see. I really like the idea of them. I know they provide a huge advantage at the range and in competition, but I'd like to see how they do in extreme cold weather conditions. The FN FNX I'm currently looking at has a vortex red dot on it and that is allegedly a combat weapon so it ought to be subjected to some combat conditions just to see how it handles it.

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Hmmm. Interesting about the red vs green laser diode. Might be time to pick up an inexpensive pinty red and green lasers and test them in the freezer.... see what happens to each of them. I am a big proponent lasers for night time carry for a few reasons so this has sparked my interest.

starling said:

Hmmm. Interesting about the red vs green laser diode. Might be time to pick up an inexpensive pinty red and green lasers and test them in the freezer.... see what happens to each of them. I am a big proponent lasers for night time carry for a few reasons so this has sparked my interest.

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I'd probably put another green laser on that 19x just because it is so effective but I'd have to consider something different for winter. Truth is, it really irked me that I went through all the trouble of buying and replacing those two lasers and I just washed my hands of it all but I'm not as irked now so maybe I'd buy another one.

redcon1 said:

I'd probably put another green laser on that 19x just because it is so effective but I'd have to consider something different for winter. Truth is, it really irked me that I went through all the trouble of buying and replacing those two lasers and I just washed my hands of it all but I'm not as irked now so maybe I'd buy another one.

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People seem to be on this kick of trash talking lasers lately saying they are old tech but things like red dots and holographic sights have been around far longer. I am not the type to put fad gadgetry on defensive pistols but lasers are different. The versatility they have in a night time situation is pretty fantastic. You dont even need to be in a firing position to get accurate hits. Even in the event that it could fail its still underneath the barrel and out of the way. Concealment wise they are practically weightless and any bulk added is not even relevent as its in front of the trigger anyways. Only real downside I can see is if you like to hook your finger of your support hand around the trigger guard (80s style hold) but its a minor adjustment.

starling said:

People seem to be on this kick of trash talking lasers lately saying they are old tech but things like red dots and holographic sights have been around far longer. I am not the type to put fad gadgetry on defensive pistols but lasers are different. The versatility they have in a night time situation is pretty fantastic. You dont even need to be in a firing position to get accurate hits. Even in the event that it could fail its still underneath the barrel and out of the way. Concealment wise they are practically weightless and any bulk added is not even relevent as its in front of the trigger anyways. Only real downside I can see is if you like to hook your finger of your support hand around the trigger guard (80s style hold) but its a minor adjustment.

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I have the green rail master on my Ruger Mk IV tactical and it has been great for eliminating varmints at night especially when used in conjunction with a flash light. I had previously used a red dot sight for this application and it worked but the green laser worked better. As for the 19x, I had the green laser grip on that which added some bulk to the grip area but I didn't find the added size to be a problem in this area. I prefer the railmaster's location but that would prevent me from using my favorite leather holster and would force me to look for some kind of custom kydex holster and I don't want to do that.
You're right about all the advantages of the laser that you just mentioned. The ability to shoot from non-standard shooting positions such as one might potentially encounter in a combat situation is a big bonus. Remember the scene from the Dirty Dozen where Lee Marvin and Charles Bronson stroll up to the car full of Nazis in the middle of the night and then rapidly dispatch them all with a suppressed period incorrect Beretta Jetfire .25 acp? How handy would a laser have been in that situation? Another thing that's nice about them is they let you see how bad or how good your shooting fundamentals really are during dry fire practice. If you can you see that dot shaking and moving all around on the target when you squeeze the trigger, it's a pretty good indicator of where your accuracy problems lie. And like I said, they make head shots a breeze which would be useful if you found yourself up against a bad guy with body armor which is an increasingly likely threat. Given all the advantages that a laser confers, I don't know if a red dot sight would actually be superior; although, I'm sure it's a good tool for many applications. I think they're both great tools that one should become comfortable with using.

redcon1 said:

I have the green rail master on my Ruger Mk IV tactical and it has been great for eliminating varmints at night especially when used in conjunction with a flash light. I had previously used a red dot sight for this application and it worked but the green laser worked better. As for the 19x, I had the green laser grip on that which added some bulk to the grip area but I didn't find the added size to be a problem in this area. I prefer the railmaster's location but that would prevent me from using my favorite leather holster and would force me to look for some kind of custom kydex holster and I don't want to do that.
You're right about all the advantages of the laser that you just mentioned. The ability to shoot from non-standard shooting positions such as one might potentially encounter in a combat situation is a big bonus. Remember the scene from the Dirty Dozen where Lee Marvin and Charles Bronson stroll up to the car full of Nazis in the middle of the night and then rapidly dispatch them all with a suppressed period incorrect Beretta Jetfire .25 acp? How handy would a laser have been in that situation? Another thing that's nice about them is they let you see how bad or how good your shooting fundamentals really are during dry fire practice. If you can you see that dot shaking and moving all around on the target when you squeeze the trigger, it's a pretty good indicator of where your accuracy problems lie. And like I said, they make head shots a breeze which would be useful if you found yourself up against a bad guy with body armor which is an increasingly likely threat. Given all the advantages that a laser confers, I don't know if a red dot sight would actually be superior; although, I'm sure it's a good tool for many applications. I think they're both great tools that one should become comfortable with using.

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Agreed. When we first started trying lasers (early 90s) we were kind of amazed how you could get consistent hits from completely rediculous postitions and stay completely covered. Shooting around corners, Laying down, sitting inside an old car, point shooting, hip shooting etc. etc. My grandfather and dad thought it was the best advancement in firearms since scopes really became common usage. For defensive pistols I dont think they can be beat at night or in low light conditions.

Red dots are completely different of course because you are so dependent on having you head in perfect position (similar to iron sights). So for an experienced shooter with good eyes I dont see them as any sort of major advancement on a defensive pistol. Fun? Yes. I have used them for years on some of my range pistols. Tube dots mounted on the frame (ultradot types). Sound ancient to some here but those tube dots still work over 20 years later and have never broke after a lot of shooting. First slide mounted I tried was the Tasco Optima in maybe 1999 so the tech is at least 23 years old. Reflex sights go back much, much further...1940s. They just could get the slide mounted stuff durable enough back then. The Tube dots also were easier to pick up the dot quickly. On rifles and carbines I think they shine because its easier to get into the same postition consistently but for pistols outside of a controlled environment like competition I am not seeing it be useful. Doesnt mean it cant be fun though. One big benefit all red dots give is for those with failing or lessening eyesight so there is that (and its a big one). I have seen red dots help a lot of 60+ year old shooters and thats great. I also think it can help new shooters that dont have the ability to use iron sights but if they should skip like that is kind of shakey IMO. Seems like the draw for younger inexperienced shooters might be based more off of video games than anything else.

So its a recycled concept with a new marketing spin (competition morphed into tactical). I hear people say that it helps the pistols with accuracy at distance but thats more placebo than anything. A red dot is not going to make a pistol more accurate. This is an Arrow vs Archer thing. I am not completely against it or completely for it as its kind of dumb to be that extreme on a sighting aid. Like anything in firearms tech or design people just need to understand it.

I teach my kids shooting a lot. Mostly irons and peep sights focussing on fundamentals. I do let them try things though temporarily just to become familiar with things. Red dots, Lasers, Scopes etc. They prefer KISS because for them its simple and less to mess with but as time goes on that my change. Im fine with that of course as long as they have good fundamentals.

Maybe the big questions are can you trust it 100% and how complicated are you willing to let your defensive CCW get. There are still a lot of people in the camp that a defensive CCW pistol should not have easily adjustable sights and I tend to agree a bit...others say no sights needed .....which to me is kinda dumb unless its something meant to be used in a closet IMO.

It comes down to whether you're planning or hoping. I forget who coined the term (maybe Tom Givens?) but a snub .38 Special might be considered a "two-bad-guy gun." If you find CCW to be a PitA and don't want to deal with the hassle of CCW with a larger gun you might convince yourself your gunfight will be at 3 yards with one bad guy. As a previous poster alluded to, many people are likely alive today because Eli Dicken didn't strap on a two-bad-guy gun that morning. He had three things going for him: Skill, guts and a solid fighting handgun. I don't know if he had a RDS on it or not.

There's probably not a single correct answer. I've carried where it was legal almost constantly since getting my CCW permit in '90 or '91. I've never come close to drawing my sidearm although two times I thought I might have to. So clearly I haven't "needed" a gun at all. Of course, after 30 years of not needing it tomorrow could be the day I do.

My suspicion is that if I do need to use a firearm defensively I probably won't be dictating the terms of the engagement. If might be at contact distance or it might be 50 yards across a parking lot. At contact distance even sights are probably not going to be used. But as the range increases, shooting ability and equipment start to tip and engagement in favor of the person with better skills and better gear.

In good light conditions on a clear day I can hit a milk jug at 100 yards with a Glock 22 with decent regularity. In poor light I probably can't see that milk jug. My ability to hit with open sights has steadily decreased as I've gotten older. Red dots keep in the game so far.

I do my best to gear up train for the widest range of situations I can, so I'd rather have a CCW gun that's capable of better accuracy than I am vs the other way around.

SimonRL said:

In a a tight defensive situation most people will point shoot they are probably going to completely ignore their sights. For those who say they are trained well enough to find their sights they’re going to have to find front and rear sights and have them lined up. With a red dot, all you need is the dot on target - it doesn’t even have to be centered in the window - and you are going to hit your target. The real issue with red dots in a defensive situation is that you have to train, train, train. You can’t just pop one on, go to the range, shoot some targets and be good to go. You have to train in a real world environment.

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Yes, but that applies for any firearm in any configuration. I suspect that "point shoot" is not something that should be encouraged, you already have a failure if your threat is close enough for "point shooting" to be effective.

I’ve been shooting with iron since since I joined the Marines in 1959. Recently I considered getting a red dot for my EDC. I did a lot of research at websites, forums, and YT. I decided not to go to a red dot. No point in going into my reasons. I can see the value they offer For some applications and situations. I can understand why people use them and why they don’t. In my process I came across this YT video that offered a view of the choice that might be worth watching when considered him a red dot for an EDC.

Remember, if you are planning on making "head shots" at distance in real life, the target won't be stationary like in the movies, or like the paper target at the range.

If you can make head-shots on a predictably bobbing target at 25 yards, I'm impressed.

Make that bobbing UNPREDICTABLE, and well....

A head shot even at 25 yards bobbing and weaving that may be, would still be just as hard for a red dot user as it would be for irons.

While I have whole heartedly converted to RDS on my handguns and find them to be both faster and more accurate at all distances, I will waste anyone's time trying to get others to convert to them; but I will leave you with a piece of advice I got from one of my instructors when I first when to CQB school for all those who think that point shooting is more than enough for defensive situations.

"You cannot miss the enemy fast enough to survive."

Buzznrose said:

Nice! You are doing it right. I want one of those. What system do you have and how do you like it!

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I work for a firearm training company on the side and we run a lot of laser classes, using laser rounds in the guns they will be using live fire, to make sure that our students understand the basic principles that are trying to teach them before running live fire. And for full disclosure we do not get any royalties or funding from any of these companies if you choose to buy their product based on my opinions and experiences.

That being said we have tried three different laser rounds and have found the G-Sight ELMS Plus, link, to be the most reliable and brightest on target.

For targets, we have tried four different ones now and found the KEIRON brand to be best, link. I personally prefer the Speed version as it incorporates a shot timer but the standard version works just as well.

An issue that hasn’t been mentioned yet is dust. I spend a lot of time on an ATV or UTV riding forest trails and trails on my neighbor’s ranch when he asks for my help.
My sidearm is always covered with a layer of dust by the end of the day. Sometimes that layer of dust can be fairly thick. That’s not a big deal with iron sights but I don’t think a red dot would be very useful if the lens was covered with dust which could cause some serious glare.

Has anyone had a problem with dust?

That’s interesting. I didn’t realize that.
I used to have a red dot called a Single Point or something like that back in the late ‘70s. It required binocular vision as well.

But what about dust on the near face of the lens? Could that make the dot difficult to see in certain lighting?

Bottom Gun said:

That’s interesting. I didn’t realize that.
I used to have a red dot called a Single Point or something like that back in the late ‘70s. It required binocular vision as well.

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Your location shows AZ. Freddie Blish will teach it to you if you go to any of his classes.

Jeff White said:

If you have binocular vision you can completely cover your red dot lens with mud and if you look at it with both eyes open you will see the dot on the target. Occluded eye gun sights like old Armson OEG worked that way. I used to have my soldiers close the front lens covers on the CCOs to demonstrate this.

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Armson... theres a blast from the past. Those are being made again. No batteries required! Those definitly had a learning curve. I kinda liked them on a shotgun.

Jeff White said:

If you have binocular vision you can completely cover your red dot lens with mud and if you look at it with both eyes open you will see the dot on the target. Occluded eye gun sights like old Armson OEG worked that way. I used to have my soldiers close the front lens covers on the CCOs to demonstrate this.

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I'd believe this with a long gun, to a point. Mostly because of the buttstock in the shoulder and the cheek weld. But I'm pretty skeptical about such a concept using a handgun. At least when it come to putting rounds on the target.

Perhaps someone could tape the front of their RDS, do some drills (whatever seems appropriate), and report back. Seems kind of unfair for me to try it, being as I'm not practiced with an RDS on a pistol.

Jeff White said:

Please explain;
1. Why you only believe it's true to a point. I've done it, I've taught it to both soldiers and LE officers. It was demonstrated in every carbine class I've taken from Tier One instructors.

2. Why it wouldn't work with a handgun. I know that some people have problems with "chasing the dot" with a handgun but it seems to me that once you are able to consistently raise you handgun and have the dot it should work the same way it does on a long gun.

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1. I'm speaking of precision. Someone may be able to shoot 1 MOA with a dot at 100 yards, but seeing the dot with one eye and the target with the other seems unlikely to grant the same level of precision.

2. I don't believe the presentation of a handgun is likely to align as precisely as a long gun. There are fewer points of contact and more room for error.

Bottom Gun said:

But what about dust on the near face of the lens? Could that make the dot difficult to see in certain lighting?

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I've found that in some lighting conditions dust can completely obscure the dot in open-emitter designs. No such issue with closed dot sights, for me at least.

Jeff White said:

I can close the front cover of my Aimpoint Comp M2 and shoot it just as accurately as I can with it open.




This is why some people have problems and end up “chasing the dot”. Have you ever practiced your draw (dry fire rules apply) with your eyes closed and then opened your eyes to see where your sights are? If you practice your draw enough and make corrections you should be able to consistently have the sight on target when you complete your draw.

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On the eyes closed dry fire draw practice: Yes, I have. And yes I can. I understand that level of unconscious competence can also be achieved with a RDS.

As far as being just as accurate with your Comp 2 with the front cover down, I will take your word on that, Jeff. If you say that's how it is and you've proven it to yourself, I believe you. The only reason I was skeptical is that I know my eyes don't always work perfectly in sync when given different tasks. Perhaps that's atypical. But, as an example, I have to remember to keep my focus hard on the target when snap shooting with a rifle, or I get all messed up.