Keep Your Trigger Covered

I carried a 1911 as a duty gun for many years. In a holster. With a strap under the hammer. Many things would have to go wrong for it to go off.

When we were issued Glocks, I treated it like a rattlesnake. In the holster, out of the holster, in the lock box at the jail. Etc. Cop guns get handled a lot. With a 1911, when I took it out of the holster, administratively, my thumb went under the thumb safety. I had a very high (and realistic) expectation that even if the trigger bumped something, it would not go bang.

For a very long time, I’ve carried appendix. It has a lot of advantages.

I will only carry a double action pistol or revolver appendix.

With the current crop of striker fired guns, and my beloved 1911, everything has to work right for the gun NOT to fire. All the stored energy to fire the gun is waiting.

With a DA trigger, that energy is not applied until I choose to. Everything has to work right for the gun TO fire.

Ever since Glock introduced the Safe Action and convinced people carrying around almost fully cocked pistols, with no mechanical safety, was a good idea, it’s just accelerated. Until now, the Sig 320. S&W M&P are fully cocked pistols. With short light triggers.

It’s Interesting that the US Army specified a 5.5-6.5 pound trigger for the 1911. A gun with a grip safety and a thumb safety. Yet the Sig P320 has less weight than that and, no external safety.
 
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sgt127 said:
With the current crop of striker fired guns, and my beloved 1911, everything has to work right for the gun NOT to fire. All the stored energy to fire the gun is waiting.

With a DA trigger, that energy is not applied until I choose to. Everything has to work right for the gun TO fire.
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Excellent points!
 
Slamfire said:
The half cock is not a positive safety. It can be sheared. It does wear and may not engage with the sear. The sear spring may be weak and not positively force the sear into the half cock.

View attachment 1121763

a series 80 mechanism has a ledge, but not a half cock

View attachment 1121764

Shoot a 1911 enough that the hammer and sear are worn. You probably will not trust a half cock as a safety device after that. On my Kimber I am on the third hammer and second sear. You know the hammer/sear is worn when the pistol doubles with one trigger pull. Of course the first time that happens, you don't think the hammer is worn, because you cannot visually see what is going on inside the mechanism. So, you load another magazine, shoot again and the pistol goes bang-bang with one pull. At some frequency of doubling, you accept the fact you need new trigger parts in the mechanism.

And the series 80 firing pin block. It might work, it might not. Firstly I have had the firing pin block drop down and jam a Colt Combat Elite. That is a jam that requires a table to rest the pistol on, and two chop sticks. One chop stick to press the firing pin forward, as you are pressing on the firing pin block.

blast from the past:


From: [email protected] (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Removing firing pin plunger from 1911A1

Date: 22 Aug 90 00:12:10 GMT
RE: Gayman's question about removing firing pin block from gov't mod

One isolated experience:

I took the firing pin blocking plunger out of my Delta Elite because over time it began to hang down below the slide and jam the gun. Previously it had occasionally blocked the firing pin for no apparent reason. The only disadvantage I see is that a lot of unburned powder finds its way through the plunger's hole into the firing pin's hole. My load is 11 gn of AA#7 behind the Hornady 170 gn bullet. The AA#7 residue hasn't caused any problem yet after around 500 rounds without cleaning the firing pin's hole. This is not to be construed as a recommendation of the practice, however; it's merely an observation. I think there's a lot of potential here for causing an inopportune reduction in the firing pin's impulse.

I don't consider the job complete because I haven't thought of a convenient method of blocking the hole. I did turn a couple of brass spacers to take the places of the parts I removed from the frame. All in all, the trigger pull is much improved: again, just an observation, not a recommendation.

Legally, I'm sure the removal of the firing pin block is a hanging offence.



And then, I had this: the firing pin block locked up

View attachment 1121765

this was a well known failure mode about thirty years ago.


From: [email protected] (John Bercovitz)


Subject: Re: Unsafe mode; was: Re: Concealability ?

Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
(John Bercovitz) writes:

#In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
(Rick Bressler) writes:

Does anybody out there know for sure? Does the firing pin lock work on a model 80 when the hammer is down? I'm curious now. Maybe I should hop up to the local gun shop and check for myself.... :). (Another excuse to go :).

I have a series 80 Delta Elite. The firing pin lock does not work on my sample when the hammer is down. I do not know if this is true on all series 80 Colts. (Though I'm mighty suspicious that it is.)

Anybody got a good recipe for crow? I've been ingesting a lot of it recently.

I did a survey of various Series 80 Colts last night and found that it is clearly Colt's intent that the firing pin lock work with the hammer down.The survey consisted of visiting a gun shop on the way home and calling a few friends who have Series 80 Colts. All of the guns examined locked the firing pin with the following exceptions:

1) Mine - mainly the notch in the firing pin is too far forward so it prevents the lock plunger from dropping when the pin is a little forward.
2) One at the gun store - the lock plunger is a little rough and sticks in its hole a little; it could potentially stick in the up position.
3) Another one at the store - the lock system's parts had too much clearance and it was possible to push on the firing pin such that its tip projected a very short distance from the breech face even though the lock plunger was engaged.
4) One belonging to a friend of mine - the lock plunger was jammed in the up position by an accumulation of powder residue.

This survey was a much better survey than my previous survey which consisted of one sample. The present survey consisted of roughly 40 guns (I didn't count them but there were maybe 20 in the store + several from each IPSC competitor).

This exercise did not inspire confidence in Colt's locking system.I think it would be worth your time to check your firing pin lock if you have a Series 80. The test is simple to do - all you have to do is lock the slide back and you will find easy access to all of the pertinent parts right there at the rear of the slide.

[email protected] (John Bercovitz)
Click to expand...

No one has mentioned a removal problem with the plunger. I have a Taurus PT1911 that the plunger will not come out for cleaning of the extractor.I have of the plunger body will get peened by the hammer and the buggered cup will not clear the extractor. Any thoughts on that?
 
This happened in WA state several years ago, a guy died in his car with his family present after a sweatpants ND that severed his femoral artery.
 
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Vern Humphrey said:
When it happens, there's something wrong with your holster. Check it out.
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There was nothing "wrong with [my] holster." But the safety was exposed and could be brushed off my anything that bumped into it at the right angle. I was conscious of this and made efforts to prevent that from happening. But over the years, it happened a few times.


Besides the grip safety that I mentioned, the holster retention strap ran across the back of the slide and would prevent the hammer from falling and striking the firing pin, even if somehow, the covered trigger could have been pulled.
 
bigger hammer said:
There was nothing "wrong with [my] holster." But the safety was exposed and could be brushed off my anything that bumped into it at the right angle. I was conscious of this and made efforts to prevent that from happening. But over the years, it happened a few times.


Besides the grip safety that I mentioned, the holster retention strap ran across the back of the slide and would prevent the hammer from falling and striking the firing pin, even if somehow, the covered trigger could have been pulled.
Click to expand...

If the safety could be brushed off, there's something wrong with the holster.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
If the safety could be brushed off, there's something wrong with the holster.
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Then thats about any make of holster out there, unless you modify it some how like you have.

Even then, Id have to see if it actually worked in the real world.

film495 said:
same
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What holsters have you used that actually do?

Ive carried with AIWB holsters as well as Smart Carry holsters, and contrary to what you often hear, neither do.
 
trackskippy said:
Then thats about any make of holster out there, unless you modify it some how like you have.

Even then, Id have to see if it actually worked in the real world.


What holsters have you used that actually do?

Ive carried with AIWB holsters as well as Smart Carry holsters, and contrary to what you often hear, neither do.
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none. I don't IWB carry at all.
 
trackskippy said:
Then thats about any make of holster out there, unless you modify it some how like you have.

Even then, Id have to see if it actually worked in the real world.
Click to expand...
It works very well -- I test my holsters by shoving a cocked but unlocked (and unloaded) pistol into the holster and when I pull it out, it's locked.

It's a very simple modification -- simply sew a thick leather piece to the holster along the line made by the safety lock on the leather backing.
 
Theres a difference between just pushing it in and out and actually wearing it around for a long day, day in and out. Thats the only way I know the vet things and know whats good and whats not.

Ive always bought quality holsters, and have always had the issue with my 1911's and a couple of my High Powers.

Once kydex holsters and sheaths, etc, showed up, it was a game changer for me, and other than some specialty holsters, I no longer use leather holsters.

Of course, we all have different lifestyles, and if youre active and doing physical things, youre likely going to have a different experience than someone who sits at a desk, or just rides in a car, etc all day. You may never find that it comes off, where someone else might see it every day.
 
Ever since Glock introduced the Safe Action and convinced people carrying around almost fully cocked pistols, with no mechanical safety, was a good idea, it’s just accelerated.
Click to expand...
1. The Glock striker spring is about 50% compressed with a round chambered. That equates to about 25% of the energy stored in the striker spring compared to the point at which the sear would break to drop the striker during the trigger pull. That hardly qualifies as "almost fully cocked". There are some striker-fired pistols that are almost fully cocked with a round chambered, but the Glock is not one of them. The Rittman video posted on the first page of this thread shows how the striker spring compression is performed and gives an accurate impression of how much pre-tensioning is done by the slide and how much by the trigger pull.

2. The Glock has three mechanical safeties. They are passive safeties, not manual safeties, but they are certainly mechanical safeties.
The quick draw types have zero desire to have an empty chamber, as the fastest man always wins.
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This is an oversimplification. One reason to carry chamber loaded is to provide a faster response.

Another reason is to avoid shooter induced malfunctions from chambering a round under stress.

Another reason is to have a gun that can be fired one-handed v.s needing two hands to get into action. This can be invaluable if one hand is needed to hold a light, to fight off an attacker or if one hand is injured.

There are reasons to carry chamber loaded and reasons not to--both approaches come with advantages and disadvantages.
 
JohnKSa said:
1. The Glock striker spring is about 50% compressed with a round chambered. That equates to about 25% of the energy stored in the striker spring compared to the point at which the sear would break to drop the striker during the trigger pull. That hardly qualifies as "almost fully cocked".
Click to expand...
We seem to do this periodically.

Glock's are about 2/3 cocked when a round is chambered. There is enough stored energy in the partially cocked striker to ignite a round.

What makes the Glock safe is not that is has a partially cocked striker, but rather the firing pin safety.
 
someguy2800 said:
I have tested both my rugers and my glocks to make sure the firing pin block is actually effective by using a backing plate that is cut in half so that I can stick a screwdriver in through the back and press on the sear with a flat screwdriver.
Click to expand...
That is not a good practice with the Glock. The design of the gun is intended to prevent the sear from dropping down from that position. You are bending/deforming the sear and/or the ramp safety and/or the slide rails if you pry hard enough to force the sear down when it is in that position.

You can test the Glock firing pin safety with an UNLOADED gun by doing the following. Pull the trigger and hold it to the rear. Shake the gun back and forth and you will hear the striker clinking back an forth inside the slide--that proves that the firing pin safety is fully disengaged. You can check to make sure it is blocking the striker by checking it with the slide removed from the pistol.
 
Glock's are about 2/3 cocked when a round is chambered. There is enough stored energy in the partially cocked striker to ignite a round.
Click to expand...
Arguably, the test you perform does not fully replicate the function with the pistol assembled since there is some interference between the firing pin safety and the striker in normal operation even when it is disengaged and because it's hard to get the striker lined up exactly where it needs to be before releasing it. A forensic engineer on TFL claims that he performed more careful tests and was able to verify that the gun would not fire with the trigger forward.

Here is his post:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6929093&postcount=37
MarkCO said:
[B said:
wild cat mccane[/B]]Reason I persist is until here, I'd never heard that the glock has enough energy to hit a primer "good enough" to fire.
Click to expand...
Because they do not. Even reducing <trigger> travel and using Fed Primers. I have eliminated that as a potential failure mode in multiple cases I have worked on professionally as a forensic engineer.

M&Ps, XDs and 320s definitely have enough energy. But you still need a failure of an internal part to get them to fire.
Click to expand...

As far as how far it is cocked, that's not really a matter for debate except for those who won't take the time to get the facts. It's not that hard to measure the striker spring compression to see that it is about 50% compressed (5 or 6 mm out of a total of 10 or 11mm) with a round chambered (trigger forward) and simple spring theory tells us that about 50% compression amounts to about 25% of spring energy stored. Those are not exact figures, but they are accurate enough to tell us that "2/3 cocked" is absolutely incorrect--as is "almost fully cocked".
 
trackskippy said:
It happened with every holster I used. Early on, I used a holster with a thumb break, and quickly cut it off. All the holsters since have been without a strap, and most have had a sweat guard (IWB holsters).
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I had the gunsmith grind the extended thumb safety down on my Kimber because it was always getting disengaged in the holster. That seemed to solve the problem. I don't think the original design called for an extended thumb safety and it seems kind of unnecessary and mostly an aesthetic preference which seemed to be causing a safety issue. That being said, I still prefer my Glock Wonder9 with no thumb or grip safety.
 
I only ever carried Colts or GI guns with the factory safeties. Never been a fan of the extended safeties.

Ditto on the Glocks. For the past decade or so, its been a 17.
 
Can you tell us what's "wrong with the holster?"
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A holster should not allow critical controls to be operated on the gun. You don't want to put the gun in the holster on safe and have it come out off safe--or vice versa. You don't want the trigger being operated while the gun is holstered. You don't want the magazine being released while the gun is holstered. You don't want the slide being pushed out of battery.

Once you know that is happening, you know what is wrong with the holster--it allows critical controls to be manipulated while the gun is holstered.

If you are tasked with fixing the problem, you need to know the details, but otherwise the specific details of the design flaw, or wear, or damage that results in the holster failure are a secondary issue. It doesn't work right and it needs to be fixed (if possible) before it is used again.

If you test drive a car and it doesn't stop when you hit the brakes, it makes no sense for the salesman to grill you about what specific design flaw or damage or wear is causing the failure as if that changes things somehow. It's not working right--it needs to be fixed before someone uses it again.
The quick draw types have zero desire to have an empty chamber, as the fastest man always wins.
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Interesting scenario with respect to chambered/non-chambered.

The scenario in question starts at 14:46 in the video.

Bad guy #1 draws and has the drop on the good guy but has to chamber a round in his pistol.

The good guy sees the action start and draws from the drop. He draws with his strong hand, while he quickly closes and uses his off hand to deflect the BG's gun. The good guy takes an arm wound instead of a center-mass hit because of the deflection. The wound to his off arm is a non-issue during the fight because his gun can be operated with one hand given that it's carried with one in the spout. He starts getting rounds on target and BG #1 folds up like a cheap card table.

BG #2 comes up behind the good guy in the middle of the action. The good guy never sees him. BG #2 jams his gun chambering a round. His buddy is taking rounds by this point and BG #2 runs off rather than stick around and try to clear the user-induced malfunction.

Good guy is shot but survives, largely because his gun was chambered and the BGs' guns were not. That lets him draw and fire and get rounds on target quicker than BG #1 even though he's starting behind the curve. It lets him use his support hand to deflect the BG's aim because he doesn't have to use it chambering a round. It lets him take a wound to his support arm without that wound being a factor in the outcome of the fight because he doesn't need two hands to manipulate his firearm. The second BG is in perfect position to end the good guy but isn't even a factor in the fight--he can't even get his gun into operation because he jams it trying to chamber a round.

Things to think about.
 
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