M1 Garand query

I stand by my original statement that the Garand is well served by a 150 grain bullet and of course the 168grain that I did not mention. The muzzle velocities of 2700 fps are safe and accurate. 50,000 psi should be the upper threshold for pressure. Federal American Eagle for M1 Garand is 150 grain bullet shot at 2740 fps. Hornady Match for Garand 168 grain bullet is 2710 fps. Sellier and Bellot for M1 Garand 150 grain bullet is 2700 fps. PPU for Garand is 150 grain bullet shot at 2745 fps. The manufacturers and I agree on this. This info in from the manufacturers, I didn't make it up and it's not some internet thing. I did make a mistake regarding the use of the term charging handle instead of oprod or operating rod. Thats on me.

If someone wants to shoot hot loads out of a Garand then that's their business but better check to see what oprod type you have. There are at least three different types that were developed due to cracks forming at the right-angle portion. It required a relief cut to strengthen the oprod. The latter models were stronger but still not strong enough to handle a steady pounding of hot loads as the rods may fail.

Well you make an incorrect assumption that 50,000psi should be the upper threshold for pressure. All USGI ammo is above 50,000 psi.

You also forget that muzzle velocities for USGI ammo is taken at 78ft. M2 ball should be 2805fps at the muzzle.

Muzzle velocity has exactly zero to do it the ammo is "safe" or not.

Oddly enough the "garand safe" ammo is running some of the highest port pressure out there....
 
And a double miss.

My point is, and it is really a shame it needs to be spelled out is COMMON TERM. A person new to it would find what he is looking for.

Real shame some people can't understand that and their need to FEEL superior over rides common sense, but then that is lacking in great quantities with the people today.

It will likely be followed by someone running with tears in their eyes saying someone on the internet made me feel bad. We will find out if that happens in the future here.
Why would you continue to call something the wrong thing when it's much easier to teach them the confusion and point them to the correct terminology...

Your attitude is how we now have to deal with terms like "assault weapons"....

Teach the new guys the RIGHT thing.... don't be sentimental over it. Just educate.
 
Ok....here is the deal, for a test to be done by.....wait for it, a group that rifle tests rifles to conclude, and I will call it what ever I desire, gas plugs finding that yes indeed they are viable. I see no such reference to your opinions......
When a expert, not a keyboard guy mentions a certain pressure rating yes I pay attention.
You of course are free to like or dislike anything you desire, but.... when the advice you tout about " most any ammunition will work" flies in the face of published recommendations, someone will take that as, what it is, wrong. No guessing about that one.
 
Ok....here is the deal, for a test to be done by.....wait for it, a group that rifle tests rifles to conclude, and I will call it what ever I desire, gas plugs finding that yes indeed they are viable. I see no such reference to your opinions......
I haven't posted opinions. I pointed out where your so-called "experts' had flaws and incorrect information and provided the correct information. And if you continue to call it the wrong thing after you have been shown what its actual name is....well thats just showing ignorance.

When a expert, not a keyboard guy mentions a certain pressure rating yes I pay attention.
Are these the same "experts" that don't know the correct pressure rating? Why would you pay attention to people who don't know what they are talking about?

You of course are free to like or dislike anything you desire, but.... when the advice you tout about " most any ammunition will work" flies in the face of published recommendations, someone will take that as, what it is, wrong. No guessing about that one.

Published recommendations have already been shown to have many errors and lots of opinions in the articles.

Continuing to accept myths as facts will not help the garand collector/shooter community.
 
Here's what I do for all my Garands, I shoot factory ammo that came 20 to a cardboard box and 20 boxes per 50cal can, I purchased multiple cans so I can shoot them for a while, when I reload for them I follow "Garand safe" loads closely.
All my Garands are as received from the CMP and shoot very well and bring smiles from fellow shooters and range officers I've let shoot them throughout the years. My favorite to shoot is a SA rebuilt in the 50s, I've held the 10 ring with 6 Xs for 8 shots at the CMP Talladega (I held my chest high and still smile about it) with my reloads and after a couple of clips to figure out exact clicks for elevation and windage.
I tell anyone looking the CMP is great people and they have fair prices for great products and they go above and beyond to help anyone in shooting sports
 
Uhhh... " I haven't posted opinions " ok, so some group calls a a gas system lock screw, and another, a gas plug. Fine. Where have you exposed real experts findings, such as the CMP in their recomendations for max psi ratings? You alude to some publication 30 odd year's ago and contrast copper units to psi. Ok, think the CMP doesn't know the difference, or other posters in this thread who have factual based information disagree with your assertions that" any ammunition will work ", or perhaps its your the only expert, you alone have the secret and wont accept any other than your own vauge conclusions.
That said, if you ignore, at your peril, advice from people far more informed than all of us here, thats on you, go argue with someone else
 
I haven't posted opinions. I pointed out where your so-called "experts' had flaws and incorrect information and provided the correct information. And if you continue to call it the wrong thing after you have been shown what its actual name is....well thats just showing ignorance.


Are these the same "experts" that don't know the correct pressure rating? Why would you pay attention to people who don't know what they are talking about?



Published recommendations have already been shown to have many errors and lots of opinions in the articles.

Continuing to accept myths as facts will not help the garand collector/shooter community.

Realistically there’s a warning in the CMP literature that comes with every Garand they sell warning about the potential dangers to Garand actions of some commercial .30-06 ammo. I’d expect the CMP to know what they’re talking about since they handle Garands on a daily basis.
 
Uhhh... " I haven't posted opinions " ok, so some group calls a a gas system lock screw, and another, a gas plug. Fine.
Not some "group"...but the actual inventor.....and the military...who paid for the rifle. Posted above show which part is a "plug" and which is a "screw".

Where have you exposed real experts findings, such as the CMP in their recomendations for max psi ratings?
Umm, did you notice that my recommendations and CMP recommendations for chamber pressure were the same? Your guntest.com however isn't the same as the CMP and I.

You alude to some publication 30 odd year's ago and contrast copper units to psi.

Are you saying comparing copper to PSI isn't relevant?

Ok, think the CMP doesn't know the difference, or other posters in this thread who have factual based information disagree with your assertions that" any ammunition will work ", or perhaps its your the only expert, you alone have the secret and wont accept any other than your own vauge conclusions.

Are you upset I point out flaws in the article from you so-called "expert" guntest.com article? I posted where they were wrong. You can either see that what I posted was correct in regards to what they said...or you can stick to your guns and continue to support the guntest.com article as fact.

That said, if you ignore, at your peril, advice from people far more informed than all of us here, thats on you, go argue with someone else

I only post facts and if there is something dangerous then I'll also warn others. But shooting commercial ammo in an unmodified properly lubed and in spec garand isn't one of them.
 
Realistically there’s a warning in the CMP literature that comes with every Garand they sell warning about the potential dangers to Garand actions of some commercial .30-06 ammo. I’d expect the CMP to know what they’re talking about since they handle Garands on a daily basis.
Correct and that warning specifically says all SAAMI spec commercial ammo is fine.
 
Not some "group"...but the actual inventor.....and the military...who paid for the rifle. Posted above show which part is a "plug" and which is a "screw".


Umm, did you notice that my recommendations and CMP recommendations for chamber pressure were the same? Your guntest.com however isn't the same as the CMP and I.



Are you saying comparing copper to PSI isn't relevant?



Are you upset I point out flaws in the article from you so-called "expert" guntest.com article? I posted where they were wrong. You can either see that what I posted was correct in regards to what they said...or you can stick to your guns and continue to support the guntest.com article as fact.



I only post facts and if there is something dangerous then I'll also warn others. But shooting commercial ammo in an unmodified properly lubed and in spec garand isn't one of them.
Interesting.... I mentioned that I was finished arguing with you about this, and essentially you do you boo. That apparently isnt enough.
First time ever......ignore button.
 
News flash boys Op Rods can and have been BENT aplenty by Idiots using commercial 30-06 ammunition ,as PRESSURES are over for M1 Service rifles and Powder peak pressures most certainly do MAKE A DIFFERENCE !.


Perhaps the most difficult part of the M1 Rifle to mass produce was the operating rod, or op rod. Its design was a consequence of John Garand's conviction that a successful military semiautomatic rifle needed the power of a full stroke, gas impingement operating system for reliable functioning under all combat and climatic conditions. At the same time he had to minimize the effect on aim of the gas system's reciprocation.

Thus, the original "gas trap" system of the first Garands (up to Serial Number circa 50,000) was designed to ensure that the bullet had left the muzzle prior to any action parts moving; consequently, the original gas trap Garands are reputed to be the most accurate of all service grade (non-accurized) M1s. As this arrangement was found to be deficient in strength, particularly when the bayonet was attached, and to carbon up over time thus reducing its effectiveness, the "gas port" system familiar to all M1 enthusiasts was born. With the gas port now some inches behind the muzzle the operating rod began to move before the bullet left the muzzle, but measurements on an M14 with an M1 gas system indicate the op rod moves only about .03" by the time of bullet exit. The comparable figure for the T44 (M14) with gas cut-off and expansion system was .05".

So we see the reason for the length of the M1's op rod. The reason for its curvaceous beauty was to bring it from near the muzzle around the barrel and up to the bolt, where it operates the action proper. The op rod is made in two parts, the tube and the handle. They are then welded together to create the completed component. During WWII the right angle joint where the two pieces came together proved to be a stress riser; thus after the war op rods from rifles under rebuilds were given a stress relief milling cut (the shape of a racetrack) in that area. If it's there it's obvious when you're looking at the drawing number. When M1 production resumed in the '50's all the op rods from all three manufacturers were made with this stress relief cut from the start.

Uncut rods are not the best idea for shooting, but are necessary for collectors' restorations. If your shooter has an uncut rod, hang it on the wall or sell it to a collector and use a good cut rod.

Actually, no op rod was really "problematic"; the WWII op rods would crack after a great deal of use & abuse, at the right angle where the handle goes to meet the tube; that's why the stress relief cut was ordered & why most WWII op rods have been "cut."

Post WWII, all op rods were made with the stress relief radius "built in." D35382 (no rev number) and all the "65" and "77" prefix rods are so made.

The final op rod design is that with drawing number 7790722-RA (Remington Arms) or -SA (Springfield Armory). I like to call it the "77" op rod, but as it is often found stamped "NM" it is widely known as the National Match op rod. It had a subtle change to the tube's curve to fit it somewhat more tightly around the barrel. This design was originally intended for and used in the building of Type 2 National Match rifles at Springfield. When the supply of good op rods dried up, this design was used for general rebuilds in the '60's. Quite a few went to Korea and have come back again as parts and on rifles. You'll see them both with and without the "NM" marking, but the rods are identical nonetheless.

One of the most skilled trades at Springfield Armory and the other M1 manufacturers was "rod bending" to the standard guage. Those who did this job well were highly regarded for their abilities.

For those of you who might have wondered, that "special jig" in the Navy Van at Camp Perry is the op rod gauge! It was used to check the many critical areas & bends of the M1 Garand op rod. It was not used to bend 'em, just to check 'em.

It was possibly the most incredible gauge ever made to gauge a part for a U.S. Service Rifle. The cost to make such a thing is mind boggling. Such extravagence in gauging reached its zenith with the Garand in general, and this one in specific! The Garand even had a gauge to measure serviceability of the op rod spring tension. Sheesh, just put a new spring in her! Springfield Armory, (the original of course), could have bought tens of thousands of new springs for the cost of just one of these gauges, not to mention the time required to test each spring.

I'd encourage all of you who attend the DCM/CMP Highpower Service Rifle phase to go & ask the Navy Van to see this gauge. It's a real wonder.

Lastly, the silver "button" on the end of the op rod is the gas piston. It should be at least .525" in diameter and within .00035" of round. Max dimension is .526".

--Walt Kuleck & Clint McKee
 
News flash boys Op Rods can and have been BENT aplenty by Idiots using commercial 30-06 ammunition ,as PRESSURES are over for M1 Service rifles and Powder peak pressures most certainly do MAKE A DIFFERENCE !.

please post what "garand" pressures are and also point out what commercial port pressures are and what is the "red line". Thanks



Ok..everything after this is nothing but a cut N paste telling about oprod differences. So basically irrelevant to this discussion.
 
please post what "garand" pressures are and also point out what commercial port pressures are and what is the "red line". Thanks



Ok..everything after this is nothing but a cut N paste telling about oprod differences. So basically irrelevant to this discussion.

Slower powders produce Greater pressures ,which overcharge gas ports , in doing so it stresses the op rod hence WHY certain powders or commercial loads AREN'T recommended . IT'S Not the chamber pressure SAAMI rating and Don't confuse the two . Everyone is aware of 50K PSI 62KPsi specsw , lesser known is port pressures 2Kpsi 2500 psi , slow powders can DOUBLE the port pressure .
Those commercial loading's were Never intended for use in M1's . Your gun do as You see fit but MY guns are 80 + years and OP rods aren't cheap IF you can get them .
 
Slower powders produce Greater pressures ,which overcharge gas ports , in doing so it stresses the op rod hence WHY certain powders or commercial loads AREN'T recommended . IT'S Not the chamber pressure SAAMI rating and Don't confuse the two . Everyone is aware of 50K PSI 62KPsi specs

Please elaborate...

, lesser known is port pressures 2Kpsi 2500 psi , slow powders can DOUBLE the port pressure .
I think you would be surprised to know that the port pressure is much higher...8500-11000psi. Do you have any proof that slow powders double port pressure?

Those commercial loading's were Never intended for use in M1's . Your gun do as You see fit but MY guns are 80 + years and OP rods aren't cheap IF you can get them .

if commercial ammo generated similar port pressure as milsurp ammo then it would be good ...right?
 
The entire thread is a meaningless argument. My guidebook for marines calls it a gas plug, my gunny called it a gas plug. If your not shooting mil spec ( read safe ) rounds in your 70+ year old Garand you need an adjustable gas plug. If you don’t I can guarantee that you WILL eventually screw up the operating rod and possibly the operating rod spring. I only shoot HXP Greek milsurp, bought from CMP, in mine. It is a 1943 Springfield which Underwent an Arsenal Rebuild post Korean War. Using M2 Ball ammo and greasing with original Lubriplate 130A she runs like a top. If all else fails ask CMP, or go into their website and look up assembly, cleaning etc. They Are THE modern experts on the U S Rifle Caliber 30 M1. Nuff said.
 
The entire thread is a meaningless argument. My guidebook for marines calls it a gas plug, my gunny called it a gas plug.

Might want to revisit that....

My 1964 guidebook on pg 386 says different...
IMG_20230113_221850991~2.jpg

If your not shooting mil spec ( read safe ) rounds in your 70+ year old Garand you need an adjustable gas plug. If you don’t I can guarantee that you WILL eventually screw up the operating rod and possibly the operating rod spring.

Nope you are wrong on that as well...
 
The entire thread is a meaningless argument. My guidebook for marines calls it a gas plug, my gunny called it a gas plug. If your not shooting mil spec ( read safe ) rounds in your 70+ year old Garand you need an adjustable gas plug. If you don’t I can guarantee that you WILL eventually screw up the operating rod and possibly the operating rod spring.
And where did you hear ( or read ) this? Just curious.
 
Since you mentioned it...

What is the port pressure operating specs and what is considered "too high" of port pressure in the garand?

Thanks
1) Garand, capital "G" ;)

2) And, Garand's patent for the new front end for the M1 calls the thing screwed into the front of the gas cylinder a . . . "gas cylinder plug". :p

3) The Army testing on this subject show that the pressure in the cylinder should be between 1,200 and 1,400 psi. That equates to a maximum port pressure of 8,500 to 11,000.

Information from "Measurement of Muzzle Pressure in Caliber .30 Rifle, M1,"V. H. McNeilly, Springfield Armory, 13 March 1941.
 
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Here's some quantitative data on port pressures with both M2 Ball and commercial ammo:

https://www.garandgear.com/the-m1-garand-and-commercial-ammunition/

It seems that most 150 gr. offerings stay within the M2 ball PP range, while most 180 gr. ammo exceeds it. They also measure something called "Total Impulse" which, to me, is the reaction that could damage your M1. Total Impulse is over the M2 range with some varieties of either.

Will that damage your M1? I'm not going to find out with my rifles. BTW the CMP custom shop will rebend your op-rod to spec for $175. Item CS-107

https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/services-for-the-m1-garand/
 
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WHY are not ALL smokeless powders made the same ?, flake ball stick or extruded and WHY are they single double triple based ?
Certain powders produce peak pressure and others produce pulsed peak or extenuating pressures .shorter or longer duration .

Burn rate is important, however, when you are loading magnum vs. non-magnum rounds. Typically, a non-magnum load will use faster burning powders while a magnum cartridge will need slower burning powders. Magnum rounds need to generate greater power. Therefore, they use slower-burning powders, which creates peak pressure for a longer timeframe. This is also needed to give the heavier bullet maximum power and velocity.

Specifics will change by cartridge and bullet type, but in general a fast-burning powder is used for light bullets and low-speed pistols and shotguns. Medium-rate powders are used for magnum pistols, while high-velocity, large bore rifle cartridges will need slow powders, as they deliver the most overall power.

It might seem like an instantaneous explosion, but some powders burn faster than others and you should take this factor into consideration when reloading your cases.
 
FYi ; You're WAY WAY OFF on your pressure miscalculation !. Mr. John Garand might have known a little more about it ,as evident in 1945 ,when He patented and adjustable gas plug .Clearly looking at the graphs shows Hornady superformance higher longer duration as opposed to Match ammo .

This should set the record straight and correct any misinformation regardless of who posted what ; Click the link and see for yourselves .

https://www.garandgear.com/the-m1-garand-and-commercial-ammunition/

Please elaborate...


I think you would be surprised to know that the port pressure is much higher...8500-11000psi. Do you have any proof that slow powders double port pressure?



if commercial ammo generated similar port pressure as milsurp ammo then it would be good ...right?
 
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