Jeremy2171
Member
Not really needed since you confirmed that port pressures are 8500- 11000psi at the port. Which means commercial ammo isn't the concern the internet has made it out to be.
M1 Garand query
- Thread starter Charger426
- Start date
That "concern" was around when Al Gore was still in grade school. Everybody that I know, and trust, has survived quite comfortably by shooting M2 ball or creating M1 safe handloads. Reliable reports that I have heard (face-to-face conversations with people who competed in those matches) state that guns were damaged and/or malfunctioned at Camp Perry by the Federal ammunition that was supplied during the first couple of J.C. Garand matches. Based on that alone, to state categorically that any 30-06 ammunition won't damage a M1 is questionable, at best.
You've made your point abundantly clear. I'm just going agree to disagree and move on.
Jeremy2171
Member
When it operates at the same pressures at milsurp ammo.....it's something other than the ammo.
Like improper lubrication for example...or improper disassembly.
BushMaster-15
member
IF ALL 30-06 Ammo is safe in a Garand ; WHY do ammunition manufacturers SPECIFICALLY market M1 Safe Garand ammo ?.
It DOESN'T cost anymore $ but interesting experts in their fields ALL say M1 needs M1 M2 Ball or equivalent ammunition to SAFELY OPERATE
and ammo manufacturers produce said ammo ; So being old enough to KNOW better ,I'll keep loading as per Garand specs calls for .
Here's an Interesting comparison from somebody who DID some testing .
https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/mother-of-all-garand-ammo-tests/463075
If some of you have Never read the history on the development of the Garand ,this is a pretty decent summary below . The Garand was for all intent and purpose developed BEFORE SAAMI .
As the name implies stands for Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers Institute ,Inc. Never have seen a Rifle or Pistol or any Military hardware produced by them . How Odd ,so They DON'T do they
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
https://historyguild.org/the-story-of-the-m1-garand-the-iconic-and-influential-world-war-2-weapon/
I'd think after nearing a 100 years somebody perhaps Jeremy2171 ought to set em straight
It DOESN'T cost anymore $ but interesting experts in their fields ALL say M1 needs M1 M2 Ball or equivalent ammunition to SAFELY OPERATE
and ammo manufacturers produce said ammo ; So being old enough to KNOW better ,I'll keep loading as per Garand specs calls for .
Here's an Interesting comparison from somebody who DID some testing .
https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/mother-of-all-garand-ammo-tests/463075
If some of you have Never read the history on the development of the Garand ,this is a pretty decent summary below . The Garand was for all intent and purpose developed BEFORE SAAMI .
As the name implies stands for Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers Institute ,Inc. Never have seen a Rifle or Pistol or any Military hardware produced by them . How Odd ,so They DON'T do they
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
https://historyguild.org/the-story-of-the-m1-garand-the-iconic-and-influential-world-war-2-weapon/
I'd think after nearing a 100 years somebody perhaps Jeremy2171 ought to set em straight
Jeremy2171
Member
"WHEN" did they start marketing "garand safe" ammo?
Garand specs are what specifically?
Not much of a test...just a guy shooting some groups.
You should probably revisit the history books... because SAAMI was already a thing when the Army told JCG to scrap the .276 and go BACK to the 30.cal.
Why?? You are the one who thinks they make firearms....As the name implies stands for Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers Institute ,Inc. Never have seen a Rifle or Pistol or any Military hardware produced by them . How Odd ,so They DON'T do they
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
https://historyguild.org/the-story-of-the-m1-garand-the-iconic-and-influential-world-war-2-weapon/
I'd think after nearing a 100 years somebody perhaps Jeremy2171 ought to set em straight
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Looks like you have a shot at a pretty nice rifle assuming the wood looks good and the price is right. If you are comfortable with the seller's price then it's a good deal. Seriously as to the M1 Garand rifles unto themselves knowing how good an M1 Garand really is one would need a toolbox full of gauges in order to know just how good any M1 Garand really was and include a trip to the range. When buying a "shooter" it's pretty much a matter of does it shoot well? I would put that rifle post March of 1944. Also my compliments to your daughter on her Photoshop abilities.
Serial Number 2720876 was manufactured March 1944 and serial number 3,000,000 in July 1944 as to Springfield Armory. There is no reason to get into every part revision level for correctness since the rifle is a shooter. Now for everyone else with any interest in the M1 Garand and "experts". During the early and mis 90s my wife and I owned a small brick and mortar gun shop. My niche was M1 Garand rifles and also reloading supplies and equipment. I did about everything and anything one could do with those rifles and typically had about 25 of them on any given day. The people I looked to as experts and credible information were Scott A. Duff as far as a historian and Jerry Kuhnhausen as credible authors. Bruce Canfield also had some good material. Kuhnhausen's shop manual was excellent as to parts and drawings including glass bedding the rifles.Really good material from both authors.
Today I still have a bucket of Garand Parts and two rifles I enjoy shooting. Oh yeah, if anyone needs one I have an uncut operating rod.
The upper rifle is WWII vintage with NM front and rear sights and all tricked out. Not suitable for service rifle matches because among other things chambered in 7mm-08 Remington. The lower rifle is Korean War era 30-06 Springfield with the correct "orange wood" birch stock.
Anyway I hope the thread starter enjoys his new to him rifle assuming he buys or already bought it.
If anyone wants some beater barrels suitable as tomato stakes feel free to let me know.
Ron
wmgeorge
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2017
- Messages
- 560
I am thinking of trying to get a M1 from CMP... rack grade. I was in the AF 1961-65 so I missed the M1 and a old farm kid like me (squirrel hunting with a 22 single shot) it was zero effort to qualify expert with the little M1 Carbine. So what are my odds of getting a decent one?
Last edited:
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I figure things this way as to the "Garand Dafe" ammunition. While the phrade has been floated around for decades for the newer Garand enthusiast who have a CMP or DCM rifle the SMP recently included this in the pamphlets that ship with their rifles:
So as many consider the CMP to be the leading authority on the M1 Garand service rifle and consider the CMP as the former mentioned experts they are going to accept that as gospel. This argument has persisted for decades and will continue for decades regardless of how you or I choose to explain it. One of those “Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.” Buffalo Springfield’s lyrics are just as correct now as then.
Moving along to chamber pressure in any rifle. We have come along way in pressure measurement especially with new pressure sensors and yes, there is no mathematical correlation between CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) and actual PSI (Pounds Square Inch). Matter of fact years ago in this forum one member posted an actual formula they had derived but it really never worked out.
A big part of the problem is the older CUP method for measuring pressure verse the newer piezo method are not the same. Measuring pressure involved a defined method. Now told in the CIP method and even the CIP numbers won't agree with the SAMMI numbers. All of these methods are well covered in how it's done. When measurements are not taken using the same procedure they will obviously give different results.
In conclusion rather than argue a point where there are no winners and nobody is about to change their views let sleeping dogs lie. This forum and just about every gun forum out there in the Internet world has endless pages of this same argument.
Uh Oh, big warning here.
Just My Take....
Ron
Hornady announced Garand Match ammunition in 2008
https://press.hornady.com/release/2008/06/02/new-30-06-m1-garand-match-ammunition-from-hornady/#/!/
The following article mentions some other manufacturers that make Garand safe ammunition.
https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/m1-garand-ammo
Reloadron
Contributing Member
It's like a pig in a poke. You may get a good rifle or... a pig in a poke. The CMP is pretty up front in describing the grades of rifles. They are also upfront as to no returns. Years ago the supply was endless and it finally came to an end sort of. Even a beater M1 Garand can be fixed up but there is a cost making it more expensive. Nice if you live within a simple drive to the north or south stores and can get them when open but the mail order is a crap shoot.
Ron
Charger426
Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2021
- Messages
- 38
I did end up buying this rifle.
Can post some pics if interested.
Planning on shooting this weekend.
Should I ask what ammo I should be using?
I don't want to get everyone all fired up again lol.
I was just going to use M1 Garand specified ammo as I don't reload yet.
I appreciate all the interest and feedback you have provided.
Can post some pics if interested.
Planning on shooting this weekend.
Should I ask what ammo I should be using?
I don't want to get everyone all fired up again lol.
I was just going to use M1 Garand specified ammo as I don't reload yet.
I appreciate all the interest and feedback you have provided.
BreechFace
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 3,530
I saw two the other day, rack grade; and those were pretty rough as well.
Risky buisness
Member
I think your choice of garand specified ammunition is prudent. If your interested enough, there are certainly plenty of links, pros cons to sort through posted above to assist you in a final choice.
At any rate congratulations on a really neat piece of history, the garand is a great rifle and can provide
Loads of fun.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Oh yeah. During those early 90s the Garands poured in and could be had for about $250. My first DCM rifle (pre CMP) was $120 nothing like today's prices. Hell I see CMP guns at gun shows for $1200 asking and they sell for those prices. The last CMP guns are down to the bottom of the barrel. While there are places which will parkerize a Garand like Scuff's Parkerizing Good work is not cheap. The same is true for barreling and parts. Be wary of a low price as there is no shortage of fraud out there.
Ron
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Yay and good for you, now enjoy that rifle. Ammunition? You buy for your rifle what you are comfortable with. Eventually you may start rolling your own but till then if "Garand Safe" makes you feel better then go with it. Eventually rolling your own you will tweak and peak till you get the most out of the rifle.
Enjoy!Ron
Jeremy2171
Member
If you read CMPs warning it basically says commercial ammo is fine as was the previous warning for the last 20 years.I figure things this way as to the "Garand Dafe" ammunition. While the phrade has been floated around for decades for the newer Garand enthusiast who have a CMP or DCM rifle the SMP recently included this in the pamphlets that ship with their rifles:
So as many consider the CMP to be the leading authority on the M1 Garand service rifle and consider the CMP as the former mentioned experts they are going to accept that as gospel. This argument has persisted for decades and will continue for decades regardless of how you or I choose to explain it. One of those “Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.” Buffalo Springfield’s lyrics are just as correct now as then.
Moving along to chamber pressure in any rifle. We have come along way in pressure measurement especially with new pressure sensors and yes, there is no mathematical correlation between CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) and actual PSI (Pounds Square Inch). Matter of fact years ago in this forum one member posted an actual formula they had derived but it really never worked out.
A big part of the problem is the older CUP method for measuring pressure verse the newer piezo method are not the same. Measuring pressure involved a defined method. Now told in the CIP method and even the CIP numbers won't agree with the SAMMI numbers. All of these methods are well covered in how it's done. When measurements are not taken using the same procedure they will obviously give different results.
In conclusion rather than argue a point where there are no winners and nobody is about to change their views let sleeping dogs lie. This forum and just about every gun forum out there in the Internet world has endless pages of this same argument.
Uh Oh, big warning here.
Just My Take....
Ron
I’d use ammunition rated safe or the Garand. There are at least two or three manufacturers that do. Hornady and Federal are two but they may be difficult to find.
Surplus military is another suitable round but I noticed CMP does not list any in their e-store.
Midway has in stock Hornafy Vintage 30-06 Match ammo in stock but you may choke on the price.
Or get a GaranGear gas cylinder plug screw which will allow you to shoot 30-06 ammunition. I’d still stick with CMP’s bullet limitation of 150-175 grains though.
While some folks say the adjustable gas cylinder screw is not necessary, but it won’t hurt and why take a chance at damaging your new rifle.
Hope this helps and enjoy your new rifle.
Jeremy2171
Member
Correct and for the previous 60 years people owned garands there was no "garand safe" ammo.
Because it wasn't needed.
Oddly enough the "garand safe" ammo currently on the market has some pretty high port pressure....
Jeremy2171
Member
So far no one can tell us exactly what specs "garand safe" ammo is made to.
Your first priority before shooting is to clean and properly greased the rifle then ensure the oprod spring is at least 19.5" long then you can shoot what you want with no worries.
Jeremy2171
Member
I wonder what everyone is going to do if they find out "garand safe" has higher port pressure than milsurp ammo?
Lol
Garand safe commercial ammunition was not needed earlier because mil surp was plentiful and the mumberbof Garands in private hands was relatively low.
When CMP raised the number of Garands a person could purchase per year and mil surp ammunition availability diminished, it became profitable for manufacturers to produced Garand safe ammunition.
I cracked the forcing cone on a S&W Model 19 shooting a steady duet of 158 hrain full power 357 Magnum loads. Many folks say you van only crack the forcing cone with full power 110-125 grain maximum loads.
Obvious I have a data point outside what it considered the “norm”.
So, I tend to not over stress my firearms
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