Gun owners accountable for unsafe storage?

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Igloodude

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All,
The question has come up on another (non-gun) forum I frequent regarding the recent school shooting in Minnesota, of "how accountable are gun owners for the harm caused by someone else stealing and using their gun?" Now, I know that in the particular case in Minnesota, with an either active or retired LEO, it might be that the kid got the gun right off the grandfather, or broke into the safe, or something in between, so I don't want to discuss that case in particular.

In general, would you favor laws that penalize the owner of a gun if the gun was stolen from the owner and used in the commission of a crime? In particular, if the gun was found (say) lying on a nightstand during a burglary where the residents weren't home, not if the gun was taken out of a safe requiring drills and dynamite to get into.

From what I understand, this is settling in as law in Europe at least, and as much as I loathe drawing from European examples, I feel that rights come with responsibilities and the right to keep and bear arms comes with the responsibility to keep that arm out of the hands of irresponsible people.

What say you?
 
if the gun was STOLEN(my emphasis added) from the owner and used in the commission of a crime?

The discussion ought to end right there. Sadly, others will argue that the rightful owner bears some responsibility..... :banghead:


OK, hows this sound....The gun theif/crime commiter gets put down, as we'd do with any other parasite. The gun owner gets his rightful property back, along with door and window locks funded from the sale of said parasites organs.... :rolleyes:
 
If I left my car unlocked and it was later stolen, then used to run over a pedestrian or drive by shooting, should I be held accountable?
 
Are you serious about this?

TallPine beat me to it...If stolen from in my house, while I am away, what does it matter if it was in a safe, in a drawer, or on a table? It was stolen in the first place and does not matter from where or how.....What you suggest would mean that I have encouraged/aided in the stealing of my own property and then should be held accountable for crimes that I did not commit:rolleyes:?!(maybe in Calif...second thought not even Californians are that obtuse). Does your question apply to anything that can be stolen and misused or only firearms? What if someone steals an elderly citizens medication and either sell it to children that die or takes it himself and runs over a bunch of kids? Does the old timer get prison time for not locking up their medication and tempting that poor criminal into taking or selling it and killing those children? :cuss: !
 
It is particularly strange that someone would bring up that idea in relation to this incident. The grandfather was shot to death by the juvenile in question. How much more accountable would they like him to be?
 
And no I would not favor that kind of law if it was unclear in my first post!

:uhoh: :neener: :) .....but if a minor child(under 17 for this example) gets ahold of a parents weapon I do believe the parent/s should be held accountable.... ;)
 
If someone steals your car and kills someone with it, are you at fault? No. It is no different with a gun.
 
Let us get straight what should be apparent:
What's mine is mine & what I do with what's mine is MY responsibility. If some lowlife steals what's mine, what the lowlife does with it is HIS responsibility. End of story.

Re-statement of the obvious complete (for now).
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
It is particularly strange that someone would bring up that idea in relation to this incident. The grandfather was shot to death by the juvenile in question. How much more accountable would they like him to be?

The idea came up in relation to school shooting incidents in general (this one just happening to be the most recent example), where it seems most of the time the shooter(s) stole the firearms from the legal owner.

And thank you all for your responses, many of you have given me food for thought.
 
I'm iffy on child access laws, with a leaning towards the no side.
I'm pretty much leaning yes, if you leave gun in a public place (sidewalk, store). How you would do that, I don't know, except for gross incompetence. About the only scenario that is throwing a monkey wrench in that idea is what if you drive off with a gun on your bumper, and it falls off.

I once heard a great view of this matter.

The gun is in an 80 acre safe, my property.
It is in a 2000 sq-foot safe, my house.
It is in an 80 sq-foot safe, my basement.
It is behind two locked doors.

After all that, mine is still in a safe.

The gun is already in a place where no one but those I say so can go to. Why should I be punished if someone breaks in to somewhere where they shouldn't be and take it.

Furthermore, it is already behind two locked doors. Why should that third matter any more than the previous two.
 
Well- we all know what we're likely to think of the IDEA. What matter is what the LAW says in YOUR state. We got our first law of that kind in IL a number of years back. So far, it's a reasonable law, I think. No responsibility attaches to a stolen gun- yet. However, it is an "unsafe storage" law, and if a member of the household or other guest gets at the guns because they are not secure, and something happens, then you're liable. Requirements for safe storage are not particularly stringent. I have no particular problem with this law as it exists. Frankly, it made me do some things I should have done many years before. What does the future hold? Who knows? In this state, what we'll have after the next session of the legislature is a total crapshoot; I shudder to think.
 
Let's assume safe storage laws are in effect (like CA for example). Deal with this story:

Mary Carpenter
April 20,2001

North Carolina General Assembly
To Whom It May Concern,

To my understanding you are debating the passage of laws requiring trigger locks and mandatory storage of guns. I am a second generation resident of the State of California, a mother and a grieving grandmother. I wish to express to you how trigger locks and mandatory storage laws in the State of California affected my family. I hope my testimony may save someone in your state from sharing the pain we must now endure for the remainder of our lives. No law you can pass will keep the irresponsible from shooting accidents or a felon from stealing a gun. I am enclosing a portion of a letter I wrote to my own state legislators concerning the constant progression of laws restricting our guns in my state.

Depending on whether or not you truly care, you may or may not recognize my name. I am the paternal grandmother of the two children who were brutally murdered inside their rural Merced California home on August 23, 2000 by a stranger with a pitchfork.

Instead of suing gun manufacturers, I am of the opinion it is our lawmakers who need to be sued. It was you who created the laws that kept my grandchildren from being able to defend themselves with any weapon greater than their bare hands. All of my son's children had been trained in the use of firearms but were unable to get to their Dad's weapon because of California State Law.

You, who have CCW permits or armed body guards, or both expect me to face a society gone mad because of drug altered brains and lax laws on the perpetrators of crime? You had no room in your prisons for the killer of my grandchildren though his wife had reported to the police in Mojave California in June of 1997 that he had forced her and their infant son into his car (kidnapping) while living in southern California? At that time she also reported how she had managed to escape from him in Mojave after he held a gun to her head (assault with a deadly weapon) threatening to kill her and their one-month-old child?

Though more recently she had given to the Dos Palos California Police Dept. the tape from her message minder threatening to kill her present husband? Though he had assaulted a police officer while resisting arrest for drug charges? Though he had violated his parole by not appearing at his hearing and they had a warrant out for his arrest? Though they knew where he lived, and also his mother and grandmother, yet failed to pick him up? Will you then find room for my son in your prisons should his fourteen year old daughter have access to his gun while she is babysitting her siblings?

There is a growing list, in my area alone, of people (mostly women) who might still be alive had they not been in a state where the use of a gun was prohibited.

Juli Sund, Carole Sund, Selvina Pelosso, Joie Armstrong, Ashley and John William Carpenter to name a few. Lawmakers talk big about a woman's right to choose yet don't allow me the very basic right to choose to defend myself? If teachers were allowed to carry a concealed weapon to school you would see the school shootings disappear. The same is true with the citizen on the street. The reason is, these killers are cowards. You can tell by their choice of victims. They operate best where they know there are no guns.

Look at your child tonight and imagine him or her with their eyes jabbed out, their skulls splintered, their brains pierced, and their spines broken with the heavy tines of a spading fork. In defending her sisters to the death with the only weapon you allowed her, Ashley had 138 puncture wounds. Twenty-nine of them were on the right side of her face, five on the back of her head, and thirty-seven to her chest and lower neck. (Obviously he was trying to behead her.) She was nine years old. While committing no crime greater than sleeping in his parents bed, in his own house, John William, 7 years old, was stabbed 46 times, with most of them in the chest, neck, and head. Depending on the condition of your heart, you may or may not feel a small measure of the pain my family and I must endure for the remainder of our lives.

Now, imagine all the gun laws you can dream up and honestly admit whether or not they would have stopped such a mad dog as this. This man was a total stranger to the family, and other than a trace of marijuana, was not on drugs at the time. However, by the testimony of his wife and girlfriend, he was a drug user who became frightening whenever he used them. All your imagined gun laws will do is insure someone's children will die again. Take a drive downtown and see for yourself all the drug addled brains.

You may declare gun free zones, but you cannot declare killer free zones. This tragedy has made me realize I am not even safe in my locked home, my barn, or my backyard. I dare you to request the autopsy reports of John William & Ashley Danielle Carpenter done on August 28,2000 from Sheriff Tom Sawyer of the Merced County Sheriffs Dept. Also ask him for the police interview with the killer's wife and girlfriend telling about his drug use and devil worship. Ask Detective Parsley about his fetish for horror movies produced by a John Carpenter, (no relation to us), and one he especially liked, that we have learned depicts a killing done with a pitchfork.

His last employment was as a telemarketer in Merced. If you have an honest bone in your body you will see this country is in desperate need of a change of heart not the gun laws that have been in place for over two hundred years. All the gun laws you can imagine cannot change the heart of a killer and you know it. Until man's heart is changed, we will be like sheep led to the slaughter without our weapons of defense.

May you stand before God and man as my two precious grandchildren's killer if you pass any more gun legislation that will make me a felon should I own a handgun or any other gun for that matter.

Sincerely,

Mary Carpenter
http://www.grnc.org/mary_carpenter_letter.htm
 
State law controls

Some states have a statutory storage requirement.

Gross stupidity would also be actionable. I knew a woman who kept a .22 rifle on the porch under the delusion that it would scare BGs away; it reality, it was an open invitation to be stolen and misused.

If parents let a child have access to a firearm (say, a 12-year old with the .30-30 over his bed) and the child misused it, they would face a civil suit for negligent entrustment regardless of any storage statutes.

Stupidity is expensive and carelessness isn't cheap, either! ;)
 
NOPE! by stealing it, they are the ones that have intent.


along the same lines....should I be held accountable if a burglar breaks in and suffers serious injuries?..again...dont think so. It was their choice.


I like the above solution, if they are found committing it then they are the ones to pay the consequences.no lawsuits,no appeals.end of the story.
 
no, i dont think i should be held legally accountable for the actions of a criminal.

with that said, whenever i do have to disarm and leave my weapon in a vehicle, i do unload it. should it get stolen, my conscience would feel better knowing that in order for the thief to use my weapon, they'd have to track down a magazine and ammo.

thats just me though.
 
Hmmm...

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this.

Like most of you, I fell that if someone commits a criminal act to get their hands on your firearms, then you should be relieved of responsibility. I especially like the way jefnvk decribed it: My property the safe, my house the safe, and so on.

I do think there needs to be room in the law for punishing gross acts of stupidty/negligence though. As in the case of the 2nd Grader in Columbus, Ohio, where he shot himself in the hand. Or any of the many other cases where young children find the gun, and it 'accidentaly' goes off, causing harm.

Yes, children should be raised and educated on how to safely handle a gun, and that guns are not toys, but until that training is mandatory in school, we can't expect all children that might come into our houses to know.

The only thing that concerns me is what shape the punishment for such negligence should take. Would it be better to lock the offender up, take away their guns, or take away their children?

greg
 
Clearly, all crimes are the fault of the parents, who didn't raise the kids right. But that has to be the fault of the GRANDPARENTS who didn't raise the parents right. And that has to be the fault of the GREAT-GRANDPARENTS.

Obviously, if someone leaves a gun unsecured, and it is used in a crime, the gun-owner is responsible. And if someone leaves a car unlocked, the car-owner is responsible, not the car thief. And if your locks on your home aren't strong enough, YOU should go to jail, not the burglar.

Hey, here's a novel idea -- why not put the blame squarely on the person who commits the crime? :eek:
 
insanity.
there is no justification for stealing, so stealing a gun from a home, how could anyone try to charge the homeowner???

HERE's a problem- stupid lawmakers make these blanket laws that screw people over.

some realistic scenarios where owner is at fault (maybe?)

gun is left on hood of a car in a parking lot (maybe)
gun is left out on a table during a party, someone picks it up and shoots

you know REALLY dumb stuff might be the fault of the owner, but lawmakers will jsut put everything on owners
 
As long as elected officials perceive the need to "Just Do Something" we will be treated to long lines of idiotic, counterproductive, and harmful legislation. There are times and situations where no action is the best response yet the public demands something be done.

Walter Williams, my favorite among the unthinking libertarian crowd, suggests we pay congress members $1 million per year to stay home. Don't come to work. Don't make laws. Don't do anything. Just take the million bucks and go away for a year. Why? because we will save money and they can't do anything stoopid.

This is clearly one such situation where legislative action will make the situation worse.
 
theft...

without the concept of PRIVATE property, there can be no LIBERTY :fire: . "oh", they say, "you should have them all locked up, you shouldn't have a thousand frickin' guns, anyway"(the woman in Arkansas said at that shooting) well, if you have many locks, if you mind your own business, just go your way; wave, but don't get into lots of gossip w/the neighbors, others get suspicious!! aha!!! :scrutiny: what IS there in there?? they wonder....so... maybe they decide to come in. IF they break in, or even open an unlocked door, they have no RIGHT to be there, they weren't invited. (if you find a money bag from a bank, or an express company, you're supposed to turn it in!! its not yours, the authorities will tell you, you knew it belonged to another, you "KNEW" it was "WRONG".) and once they've been there, they'll tell all their friends, :D they'll want to have plenty of help to carry the loot, :) plus they need to share, you know. :) in "Colonial Williamsburg" you will see a very SMALL jail, only 2-3 cells. a friend remarked when they went there:"not very big, kinda drafty, how come it wasn't better??" "didn't need to be" was the reply, "if somone committed a crime & wasn't shot by the homeowner, if it was that serious, they were held here until the circuit judge got here & held trial. at the trial they were :found guilty or not guilty." "if not guilty, they were released & went home." "if guilty, they either made restitution to the wronged party, if theft, or executed if a capital offense." "if it was something like drunkeness, they slept it off, maybe got a small fine for disturbing the piece. but they never NEEDED big jails." not everyone has the money for safes, alarms, etc. maybe what they've got, they got by trading, etc. besides once safes, trigger(or any other) locks are successfully mandated, then we'll have to have "approved" safes, & "proper storage techniques", & of course they'll all have to be judiciously "inspected", to "insure proper compliance"(another nickname for PAYCHECK PROTECTION for the inhabitants of the CONTROL INDUSTRY). :fire: there was something i saw a few years back where numerous people had killed intruders, repeat burglars, etc. they asked one old black gentleman, "was there ANYthing there that was worth a man's life??" his reply was, "well, obviously HE thought so." :rolleyes: we need to be able to protect our HOMES AND OUR LOVED ONES, anything less is LUNACY. and when we are FORCED to defend, we must have NO repercussions, NO impoverishment, NO repetitious trials until they "get it right", it will be either right, or wrong, & that's that!! :cool:
 
If I remember correctly there is this law in NC. If a minor gets ahold of your unsecured weapon and does harm to anyone you will be going to jail.
 
It depends. There is theft, and there is negligence. If the kid next door was known to be mentally unstable, and his dad insisted on leaving guns lying around, and the kids used one to kill my kid.....then yes, I would shoot the dad and the kid....then call 91....never mind.
 
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