Which strategy for BEARS!?

Lemme think about this while I put my running shoes on... y'all just keep talkin

Seriously, Malamute is dead on... I spent a "little" time in Alaska with the Navy at Fairbanks, Anchorage and down on Kodiak. Bears will eat what ever they can get their paws on the easiest! One time we went to dump the trash off the airplane into a dumpster on the West side of the transient hangars at Elemdorf a little after dusk. Walked up to the dumpster, slid the door open and threw the bag in, heard something moving inside, and clicked on my flashlight just as the other guy threw a second bag in- I was looking right in the bear's eyes!!!! We hauled *** so I have NO idea what the bear did, and the entire crew jumped in the transient vehicle and hauled it to base ops. Those SOB's just laughed, said that the linecrew should have warned us, since this bear had been dumpster diving fro the better part of three months!

Ballads & Bears

Malamute said:

When in the mountains, I don't sing, talk, carry bells, make noise or any of those other odd things. I go to the mountains to enjoy the silence and solitude. My dogs are my extended alert system.

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I hate bear bells and I can't take a dog on pack trips with the horses so I have to sing. It's good for scaring small farm animals and apprently it must also works on bears. 43 years with no altercations. I guess those singing lessons were good for something afterall!

Now where is that darn guitar!

The Bears don't play in the woods. They play next saturday or sunday at Soldier Field depending on who wins the NFC wild card game this weekend .

As usual, I can depend on THR members taking an excellent, informative thread to the dogs (no, I did not say Bear).

I could carry either my SR .480, or my RH.44, but I do not agree with all of these 'gee, what caliber for bear' threads.

I would rather use the DUMAAS method - The most important component is to ACT like a bear, and become like one of them. This entails running, sleeping, and eating like a bear, and with the bears. NO firearms are utilized, since bears do not carry weapons, and would become suspicious immediately.

When the salmon are running, and bears are in a feeding frenzy, is really the best time to develop these important techniques. The most notary practitioner of these skills was a very intuitive guy named Timothy Treadwell, who................oops, never mind!

I guess that I had better go armed to the teeth!

Jamie

How would 9x19 to the torso in QUANTITY of 20-30 rounds work on a grizzly or polar bear? Would penetration of each round be insufficient? Assume speed shooting with a pistol, carbine or SMG...

Oleg Volk said:

How would 9x19 to the torso in QUANTITY of 20-30 rounds work on a grizzly or polar bear? Would penetration of each round be insufficient? Assume speed shooting with a pistol, carbine or SMG...

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I would say "probably" VERY angry

How would 9x19 to the torso in QUANTITY of 20-30 rounds work on a grizzly or polar bear? Would penetration of each round be insufficient? Assume speed shooting with a pistol, carbine or SMG...

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I'd be inclined to agree with your guess. I don't know that the multiplicity of hits would improve anything, unless it was the odds of a golden bb.

Though, since even the more powerful rounds are using the bb theory at heart, (though with bigger, more goldener bb's) maybe that might be enough.

The same "kills 'em after you're dead" problem as with people applies to bears.

Jamie B said:

I would rather use the DUMAAS method - The most important component is to ACT like a bear, and become like one of them. This entails running, sleeping, and eating like a bear, and with the bears. NO firearms are utilized, since bears do not carry weapons, and would become suspicious immediately.

When the salmon are running, and bears are in a feeding frenzy, is really the best time to develop these important techniques. The most notary practitioner of these skills was a very intuitive guy named Timothy Treadwell, who................oops, never mind!

I guess that I had better go armed to the teeth!

Jamie

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From our friends at API

Treadwell's films of close-up encounters with giant bears brought him a bounty of national media attention. The fearless former drug addict from Malibu, Calif. -- who routinely eased up close to bears to chant "I love you'' in a high-pitched, sing-song voice --

Enough said.

Malamute said:

It's pretty generally accepted in Wyoming that there are more grizzlies than the official numbers indicate, and they are in more areas than the official maps indicate. They are also expanding into areas that have not had grizzlies in a long time, and are becoming more bold regarding taking game from hunters, and foraging near people. The State of Wyoming wants to have the grizzlies removed from the endangered list so they can be in charge of their managment. Wyoming wants to have a limited hunt of grizzlies, to help manage numbers, and many beleive it will help condition the bears to understand that staying away from people is a good thing for them. It is not unusual for there to be 2 to 4 bear encounters a year within 100 miles or so of me. Some of those encounters are only close encounters, but some are bears beating people up some in various degrees. Haven't been any deaths for some time. I wouldn't want to be the first in a long time tho..

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The idea that Grizzly's are growing in numbers in Wyoming is actually an excellent sign of their recovery. I can't comment if the numbers are "Inflated". However I have crossed Yellowstone many times lately and at least twice in the last year across Mary Mountain trail through the Lamar and Hayden valley's with my horses. There is always more Buffalo than I can count, but I rarely see (OK once and a while) the infamous Yellowstone Grizzly. Perhaps it timing, maybe good luck, or quite possibly the management program that Yellowstone uses to keep these bears in the REALLY remote areas of the park. Of course 2 miles off any road in the north end of the park qualifies for this. Perhaps in Cooke City and Silvergate it’s more like 10'.

If Grizzly's do become overly abundant in the Yellowstone region I would like to see a program to relocate the surplus bears to areas that are suitable as bear habitat, rather then issue hunting permits. Fish and Game has identified a couple of areas where Grizzly bears formerly ranged that are perfectly suitable for reintroduction. The Grizzly's are part of a complete ecosystem. It makes sense to me to move them and preserve any animal that is still officially listed as on the Endangered Species list. Of course we still have to solve how and who will pay for it.

Example

I think California had only 6 breeding pairs of California Condors left in the Sespe Wilderness area when they were all captured and sent to the San Diego zoo to be bred with South American Condors. This was done because the size of the genetic gene pool for the CA Condor was so small that it would have vanished all on it's own in only a couple of years. The program was very successful and the condors were reintroduced to their home range a number of years later. I heard a lot of arguments about habitat but the Condors home range in the Sespe is over 530,000 acres of pure wilderness. If my memory serves me correctly this is the third largest road less area in the US.

Don’t misunderstand my posting to say I am against hunting. I clearly am not. When the habitat will not support the additional animals and many will starve because of it I fully support hunting. Hunters are an important ally of the Fish and Game department. Without them it would be difficult to mange the size and heath of many different animal herds. It's the poachers I hate.

If Grizzly's do become overly abundant in the Yellowstone region I would like to see a program to relocate the surplus bears to areas that are suitable as bear habitat

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It would be a sacrifice, but I think the good-hearted citizens of Montana would be willing to donate a few grizzly bears to California since theirs are all gone now. I am thinking Malibu Beach and Hollyweird would be good habitats for grizzlies - should be plenty of defenseless food for them there

Walk softly and put a quick release on your sling.



I don't put any faith at all in the conventional wisdom that making noise to avoid "surprising" bears is necessary. As anyone who has hunted bruin can tell you, they have fine hearing and eyesight, and one of the finest noses in the world. They can smell you from literally miles away, and for weeks after you've gone. This business of how you can "surprise" a bear in the forest by not putting bells and noisemakers on is just nonsense. It's rooted in the old and completely debunked notion that bear can't see or hear very well. Believe me that bear knows you're there, but if it hasn't decided to run off by the time you get to it, it means the bear doesn't care. Putting bells on won't make any difference one way or the other.

Instead of making a bunch of racket, you should focus on LISTENING. Every time I've stumbled into a bear on the trail, I've heard it before I've seen it. They move like hugetorpedoes through the underbrush.

ANY BEAR YOU CAN SEE THAT DOESN'T RUN OFF IS A THREAT! The threat is at its lowest level on the salmon streams with brown bear where there is a sort of hormonal truce between bears that includes human fishermen most of the time. The threat is at its highest in barren ground when dealing with a griz, which has probably decided to eat you if you can see it and it doesn't run off. But in any event, you should draw a bead on the animal and get out of there. If it charges, be prepared to shoot it.

That's the picture!

Gentlemen,

Explain to me how you can see a bear with enough time to maneuver and then tell me where you think you're going to go.

Thanks Cos.

carlrodd said:

i went out west with two college friends in 1998. all i wanted to see was a bear. i thought there would be loads. i never saw a single bear. even the raw meat we hung from the branches of surrounding trees remained untouched. stupid bears.

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There's these things called zoos. A much, much better idea than the one you've posted. Just what exactly did you expect to happen when the bears showed up?

Oleg Volk said:

How would 9x19 to the torso in QUANTITY of 20-30 rounds work on a grizzly or polar bear? Would penetration of each round be insufficient? Assume speed shooting with a pistol, carbine or SMG...

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The only advice I could give ya is to file off the front sight, and any protrusions that could be sharp. Oh, and be sure to coat it in vaseline..... you know why.

Seriously, while plenty of 9mm will probably kill a bear, it's not likely going to do so nearly fast enough for your comfort or safety.

Dwayne Russell said:

The idea that Grizzly's are growing in numbers in Wyoming is actually an excellent sign of their recovery.....................................................

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I'm going to take this as a sign I should go ahead and get that .45-70Gov I saw last week in case they ever make it to Alabama.

I hope I'm not around when the last bear leaves us. I'd rather have lived when there were more bears around and fewer people.

Bears, Bells, and Oh Hell!

Cosmoline said:

Walk softly and put a quick release on your sling.
I don't put any faith at all in the conventional wisdom that making noise to avoid "surprising" bears is necessary. As anyone who has hunted bruin can tell you, they have fine hearing and eyesight, and one of the finest noses in the world. They can smell you from literally miles away, and for weeks after you've gone. This business of how you can "surprise" a bear in the forest by not putting bells and noisemakers on is just nonsense. It's rooted in the old and completely debunked notion that bear can't see or hear very well. Believe me that bear knows you're there, but if it hasn't decided to run off by the time you get to it, it means the bear doesn't care. Putting bells on won't make any difference one way or the other.

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Oh god I can see the newspapers again! That advice might work in Alaska, but you have to take into consideration that down here in the lower 48 the largest majority of our bears are in Federal Management areas. We can't carry guns in YELLOWSTONE and we don't have Salmon streams in Wyoming. Lets not forget that Grizzlys are still on the Endangered Species list and the fine for shooting one is $8000. Add that to the charges for carrying a firearm in the park and your going to need a lawyer. People need to understand that its about avoidance, using their head, and not their guns.

I have packed with horses across Yellowstone a coupe of times in the last 2 years and I do hate going without a gun. But those are the rules and we have to play by them. The same apply's to the 8 or 10 trips I have made across the Canadian Rockies with my horses in the last 16 years. I follow the rules and the advice of the NPS and Parks Canada every time and so far I have had safe and fun trips with absolutely amazing memories.

With all do respect I think people reading these threads should follow the guidelines outlined by the real experts from the Park Service. This information was taken directly from the Yellowstone NPS.gov wesbite.

"Minimize your risks by following the guidelines below:

Make bears aware of your presence on trails by making loud noises such as shouting or singing. This lessens the chance of sudden encounters, which are the cause of most bear-caused human injuries in the park. Hike in groups and use caution where vision is obstructed."

Here is what Glacier NPS has to say since they are the other major bear location in the lower 48.

"Don’t Surprise Bears!

Bears will usually move out of the way if they hear people approaching, so make noise. Most bells are not loud enough. Calling out or clapping hands loudly at regular intervals are better ways to make your presence known. Hiking quietly endangers you, the bear, and other hikers."

I grew up on a ranch 50 miles east of Banff National Park and return home every year to pack the Rockies with my horses. Parks Canada has one of the best bear inforation sites I have seen. This is what they had to say.

"The best thing to do is... AVOID an encounter!

Bears are extremely sensitive to the stress of human activity. You can actually help protect these animals by avoiding encounters with them.

© Parks Canada

* Make noise! Let bears know you're there. Call out, clap hands, sing or talk loudly especially near streams, dense vegetation and berry patches, on windy days, and in areas of low visibility. (Some research shows that bear bells are not enough)"

I would highly suggest that anyone entering bear country read / download the following document from Parks Canada.

http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/visit/visit12_E.asp#7

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One other thing . .bears have roughly the same eyesight as humans.

BTW Cosmoline I am not trying to start a fight here I think your advice is solid and I totally agree with everything else you said.

Guys I am done with the bear threads. Like everyone else here I dont mind sharing what I have learned, but its starting to become a profession. I have chores to do in the barn.

I follow the rules and the advice of the NPS and Parks Canada every time and so far I have had safe and fun trips with absolutely amazing memories.

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Yeah. Good luck with that.

For the rest of you--just take a moment to think how strongly you want to rely on the advice of an organization that disarms you on its territory and forbids all hunting of any kind. These people are NOT our friends. Anymore than the Canadian government.

With or without a firearm, you are better off leaving the bells at home and being quiet so you can hear what's moving around you. Pay attention to your surroundings, watch for prints, and get out of their if you see fresh sign. Don't barge along rattling bells. You can't surprise an animal with senses that acute, at least not without camo and scent guard. You CAN however barge into a fresh kill or between a sow and cubs if you're not watching what you're doing.

With all do respect I think people reading these threads should follow the guidelines outlined by the real experts from the Park Service. This information was taken directly from the Yellowstone NPS.gov wesbite.

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You can download their PDF's for sure. Just make sure to use light weight paper because otherwise it may cause a rash after you use it.

Shoot it til it stops moving.
If neccessary, reload.
Then shoot it more.

You aren't just limited to riding hiking or camping in National Parks, there are better places. Most people I know in Wyoming LIKE the park (Yellowstone), but consider it a place to take people from out of town to see animals. When they want some real wild country, they head into the large areas of National Forest that suround the park, and have few use restrictions (and no gun restrictions).

Many people I have shown around the area have told me that they thought the park was "nice", but they liked the scenery better, and the freedom, of the National Forests,

The whole clapping, loud noise thing is cool, right up until it isn't. Try hiking up a trail like in the pic, but full of 4' tall grass with 3' kids and hear a bear snuffle and break logs in the bushes. It could hear us, I could hear it, and the only reason I did not see it is because it did not want me to. summer before last. A gun is last ditch, but when I need it, I will be glad for the slim chance.
As for the 9x19, the advocates of buckshot say you have a better chance of hitting eyes, nose, brain. I figure the 9 is in the same category. Fmj 124's showed more penetration in logs than standard lead .45 colt 250's and hot .44 special lead 240's. It was my wifes trail gun, but the one she had showed way too much muzzle flip, negating the whole lotsa lead theory. It was traded for a .357 w/ fmj 180's. Anyway, I would take the 9, if I had to, over any other auto round, possibly excluding a 10mm. Just my opinion; that and a buck will buy you coffee at Denny's.

You are much better off with hardcast slugs than FMJ's. FMJ's are just a thin layer of soft metal over a very soft lead core. The best of all would be solids, but those are illegal for handguns thanks to the grabbers in DC.

my tactical-bear-avoidance-and-distraction-strategy is to always carry a picnic basket with me. upon seeing a bear, i start waddling in the other direction as fast as my stubby legs will take me, and when the bear gets closer, i throw the basket in the bushes, knowing the bear will follow it to satisfy its curiousity, andbe thrown off my trail.

inside the basket is not food, but actually a cluster of cherry bombs with a battery powered fuse that i trip with by remote control.

it serves two purposes. teaches the bear that picnic baskets are not as yummy as they hoped, and makes me giggle.

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That is a hilairous image.

Strategy for Bears?

Get the ball to Steve Smith.

(Tongue in cheek)

Folks, let's not forget the time honored buddy system.... for this, you'll need the following:

1 - Small concealable pistol, loaded
2 - One buddy (disarmed, of course. )

When confronted by a big-ass pissed off bear, one simply has to shoot his buddy in the kneecaps and then unass the area....

VOID WHERE PROHIBITED.

What if the bear also believes in the buddy system?

Many posts in this thread prompt me to say:
"Ok, guys. Take a life insurance and make me a beneficiary."