It's like the shark statistic. They take into account the people who live in Wyoming and such, who never get near an ocean or a shark, and therefore just dont get attacked by sharks. That really buffers down the stats. For people who don't live in NYC, if you're in the wild and interacting with bears frequently your chances of being attacked go way way up. The chances of getting zapped by lightning for americans in general might be 1 in a million. The chances of getting zapped if you spend all your time in high places with frequent thunderstorms, go way up.
Shooting a bear in self defense
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It's like the shark statistic. They take into account the people who live in Wyoming and such, who never get near an ocean or a shark, and therefore just dont get attacked by sharks. That really buffers down the stats. For people who don't live in NYC, if you're in the wild and interacting with bears frequently your chances of being attacked go way way up. The chances of getting zapped by lightning for americans in general might be 1 in a million. The chances of getting zapped if you spend all your time in high places with frequent thunderstorms, go way up.
Blacksmoke
Member
geim druth:
I live due west of Philmont on the other side of Turner's Vermejo Park Ranch. I enter the western side of his place regularly. The rumor about his re-introducing the Grizzly to New Mexico and Colorado would require approval by the US Fish & Wildlife Service, NM Game & Fish and Colorado's analog agency. That mean extensive public hearings. The chances that Turner would be authorized to introduce grizzly bears next to a boy scout camp are about zero.
BTW, there is no such thing as a "Brown Bear" in NM. Black Bears come in black, brown, tan, gold and are soon to be seen in Mossy Oak Breakup cammo. They are all called "Black Bears". They are identified largely by their ears, snout and Union card.
This is not to say they are not dangerous. Three or four years ago a hiker was killed by a sow not far from Philmont.
I live due west of Philmont on the other side of Turner's Vermejo Park Ranch. I enter the western side of his place regularly. The rumor about his re-introducing the Grizzly to New Mexico and Colorado would require approval by the US Fish & Wildlife Service, NM Game & Fish and Colorado's analog agency. That mean extensive public hearings. The chances that Turner would be authorized to introduce grizzly bears next to a boy scout camp are about zero.
BTW, there is no such thing as a "Brown Bear" in NM. Black Bears come in black, brown, tan, gold and are soon to be seen in Mossy Oak Breakup cammo. They are all called "Black Bears". They are identified largely by their ears, snout and Union card.
This is not to say they are not dangerous. Three or four years ago a hiker was killed by a sow not far from Philmont.
Gunnerpalace
Member
So if bears don't attack people that often why do we need to carry in National Parks?
(I already know the answer but for all the people reading this who don't)
(I already know the answer but for all the people reading this who don't)
22-rimfire
Member
I believe you need to be concerned about bears in the field whether you are a Boy Scout or casual hiker. "...you should know it's not a unique situation: in fact, grizzly and black bear attacks on humans are at all-time highs in North America partly because bears are growing bold in areas where hunting is deemed politicially incorrect. (Miniter referenced from Stephen Herrero et al study (20005))
"...bears that are alone are involved in attacks eight times more often than females with cubs." (Smith & Herrero, 2003)
"... grizzlies are twenty-two times more likely to attack a human than black bears are. When they summed up the number of attacks in five-year intervals, they found that grizzly attacks on humans in Alaska have gone up from fewer than ten per half-decade in the early twentieth century to more than a hundred between 2000 and 2005, meaning there are ten times more gizzly bear attacks today than there were in 1900." (Miniter ref to Smith and Herrero)
"About 33 percent of the bears attacked when they were startled." (Miniter)
"... black bears are attacking people more often than ever before."
So, Boy Scouts and hikers need to pay attention in the woods when it comes to bear encounters. They should not assume that bears will run. Bear Spray should be the minimum protection that the scouts should keep with them.
More Bears + more people + less hunting = more attacks.
I don't think bear attacks are akin to the odds of a lightening strike. However, I tend to hold to the do not disturb approach will limit the potential for an aggressive bear-human encounter. But you still have to pay attention and respect their space.
Sorry if this wandered but I found it really interesting.
"...bears that are alone are involved in attacks eight times more often than females with cubs." (Smith & Herrero, 2003)
"... grizzlies are twenty-two times more likely to attack a human than black bears are. When they summed up the number of attacks in five-year intervals, they found that grizzly attacks on humans in Alaska have gone up from fewer than ten per half-decade in the early twentieth century to more than a hundred between 2000 and 2005, meaning there are ten times more gizzly bear attacks today than there were in 1900." (Miniter ref to Smith and Herrero)
"About 33 percent of the bears attacked when they were startled." (Miniter)
"... black bears are attacking people more often than ever before."
So, Boy Scouts and hikers need to pay attention in the woods when it comes to bear encounters. They should not assume that bears will run. Bear Spray should be the minimum protection that the scouts should keep with them.
More Bears + more people + less hunting = more attacks.
I don't think bear attacks are akin to the odds of a lightening strike. However, I tend to hold to the do not disturb approach will limit the potential for an aggressive bear-human encounter. But you still have to pay attention and respect their space.
Sorry if this wandered but I found it really interesting.
geim druth
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Blacksmoke,
I'm glad to hear that no one is likely to introduce grizzlies around Philmont. You live in a beautiful part of the country and the Philmont experience is memorable.
I've done my share of hiking and camping in black bear country, most of the time in places where I couldn't carry a gun. Now, black bears are powerful creatures and must be respected, but I understand that grizzlies are more dangerous animals and travelling in their habitat always warrants carrying a firearm.
Before going to New Mexico I had never seen a brown black bear, but recently came across an entire black bear family in a very tasteful RealTree camo.
I'm glad to hear that no one is likely to introduce grizzlies around Philmont. You live in a beautiful part of the country and the Philmont experience is memorable.
I've done my share of hiking and camping in black bear country, most of the time in places where I couldn't carry a gun. Now, black bears are powerful creatures and must be respected, but I understand that grizzlies are more dangerous animals and travelling in their habitat always warrants carrying a firearm.
Before going to New Mexico I had never seen a brown black bear, but recently came across an entire black bear family in a very tasteful RealTree camo.
Crash_Test_Dhimmi
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alright...
So long as we are discussing things OTHER than what round is best to use... like survival topics, camping, animal rights, and other things...
I have to ask...
What Marinade do you use for "Brown Bear"? Does it need to be tenderized first?
So long as we are discussing things OTHER than what round is best to use... like survival topics, camping, animal rights, and other things...
I have to ask...
What Marinade do you use for "Brown Bear"? Does it need to be tenderized first?
TallPine
Member
I've been around a fair number of bears (some pretty close) and never felt a need to draw a weapon. Same thing with people 
Doesn't mean I don't choose to carry a suitable weapon just in case.
Doesn't mean I don't choose to carry a suitable weapon just in case.scrat
Member
i think i stand a better chance with the bear. Two bad knees i cant out run anything. so my 45 Long Colt does the talking
The Tourist
member
At some point, our discussion must represent values of the high road, and this circumstance is no different.
You don't run your boat full-throttle in a "no wake zone." You don't drag race a truck or motorcycle with knobbie tires through areas in parks or camp grounds. You certainly don't litter. And you all know what I think about slob hunters.
The areas where dangerous bears live can be easily learned--even in times of odd migration routes. If the weather has been dry or a forest fire has wiped out habitat, a good sportsman knows that wildlife--including predators--are on the move and aggitated.
If you don't want to eaten by an angry bear, simply avoid that location. There's plenty of areas to camp or hunt.
For example, several months ago, California set aside some acreage for condors. Immediately, hunters and campers cried foul. In the entire world of millions of acres, these cry babies begrudged 50 square miles to an endangers species. Go somewhere else.
I have a suspicion that lots of these guys pack large handguns and deliberately camp where there is bear sign. "I'm telling you Harvey, I had to shoot, it was him or me, the fight of my life..."
Oh, and BTW, don't pitch a tent on railroad tracks.
You don't run your boat full-throttle in a "no wake zone." You don't drag race a truck or motorcycle with knobbie tires through areas in parks or camp grounds. You certainly don't litter. And you all know what I think about slob hunters.
The areas where dangerous bears live can be easily learned--even in times of odd migration routes. If the weather has been dry or a forest fire has wiped out habitat, a good sportsman knows that wildlife--including predators--are on the move and aggitated.
If you don't want to eaten by an angry bear, simply avoid that location. There's plenty of areas to camp or hunt.
For example, several months ago, California set aside some acreage for condors. Immediately, hunters and campers cried foul. In the entire world of millions of acres, these cry babies begrudged 50 square miles to an endangers species. Go somewhere else.
I have a suspicion that lots of these guys pack large handguns and deliberately camp where there is bear sign. "I'm telling you Harvey, I had to shoot, it was him or me, the fight of my life..."
Oh, and BTW, don't pitch a tent on railroad tracks.
LaEscopeta
Member
There are many points of view here on THR. Some folks agree with you, and look at the nature of the danger bears present to humans. They come up wilt a multi-faceted plan to minimize the danger and be prepared (the Motto!) to deal with the worse if it happens.
Other folks take the opposite view; bears are dangerous, shoot them now. (Or even better, dust off and nuke them from obit.)
There are all sorts of points of view in between. And not just for bears but self defense in general is viewed radically differently by The High Roaders. Some believe self defense begins, ends and is only about killing what might harm you. Others arrange their lives to make the odds of having to use their last resort so small it make lottery odds look good (as mentioned above.)
(By the way I went to the Boy Scout High Adventure Area in Maine sometime in the last epoch. Canoed for 2 weeks, had a great time, didn’t see any bears.)
(Also for the you-don’t-have-to-run-faster-than-the-bear jokes, I’ll be the first to say guides in Grizzly County carry 22 caliber pistols. Not for the bear, but to shoot the client in the knee…)
Cosmoline
Member
Of course you cannot shoot every bear you see in DLP. There has to be a real threat. The line between just a bear in the woods and a bear trying to kill you is sometimes fuzzy and hard to describe, but like good art YOU WILL KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE IT! LOL. One sign is a sudden lack of bladder control.
Funderb
Member
Me too, so I know where you are coming from.
The fact is, bears are really easy to avoid confrontation with. Bears actively avoid human contact. I know people will disagree, but with ~2000 miles of hiking, not much, but enough to know a bit, under my belt, I have seen my fair share of bears. I might say that I spent every mile unarmed, unless you count a knife and light hatchet.
This IS a gun forum, and there is a lot of talk of the WCS, where you are fighting a bear for your life, but this probably isn't intended to mark and train your course of action for every bear encounter. There is a lot of speculation and joking here, which is nice, it keeps the gecko45's out.
I will bet you that when most of the members see a bear they rather reach for the camera than a gun.
Now, I must make clear, a BG is different than a bear. Bears have no capability for intentional maliciousness, that is a distinctly human trait. I suggest whenever you go packing, save the lead for those who deliberately seek you out for harm, rather than the bear you may run across and startle, or stray too near the cubs.
geim druth
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So, carefully examine the bladder of the charging bear.
Personally, I don't make the racist D) distinction between "brown" and "black" bears, or for that matter "grizzly" bears. From what I've read, one can easily look like the other. It's not something I'm going to be concerned about: if I'm being sized up by a bear acting agressively, I'm not going to consider it anything other than "hostile".
That said, we don't have enough bears in this area to make any difference. But we do have mountain lions in fairly high numbers, despite what GFP says (enough that we've got substantial amounts of scat in our yard, and we've got a medium-sized dog that spends a large amount of time outdoors).
Sure, it's nice and all to consider preventative measures, but if **** happens and the bear (or cougar) decides you (or your children!) would make a nice snack, you're not going to have time to do anything about it but maybe shoot.
It's called a preventative measure.
D) distinction between "brown" and "black" bears, or for that matter "grizzly" bears. From what I've read, one can easily look like the other. It's not something I'm going to be concerned about: if I'm being sized up by a bear acting agressively, I'm not going to consider it anything other than "hostile".That said, we don't have enough bears in this area to make any difference. But we do have mountain lions in fairly high numbers, despite what GFP says (enough that we've got substantial amounts of scat in our yard, and we've got a medium-sized dog that spends a large amount of time outdoors).
Sure, it's nice and all to consider preventative measures, but if **** happens and the bear (or cougar) decides you (or your children!) would make a nice snack, you're not going to have time to do anything about it but maybe shoot.
It's called a preventative measure.
Farnorthdan
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Respect the bruin but be prepared
Having grown up in Alaska and lived here my entire life (42 years) there is definitely a time and occasion one will have to draw on and/or shoot a bruin, black, brown, Cinnamon and/or polar. I have lived all over the state in some unbelievably pristine country. Most times bears want nothing to do with you as long as they are fairly warned of your presence. I have also seen times when no matter what you do, you have no choice but to use deadly force. In my own personnel opinion, one must spend allot of time around bears to understand their intentions, mood and level of aggressiveness. I never go into the bush without a weapon suitable enough to put down a large bruin.
I have too many eyewitness accounts of bear encounters to elaborate here.
Having grown up in Alaska and lived here my entire life (42 years) there is definitely a time and occasion one will have to draw on and/or shoot a bruin, black, brown, Cinnamon and/or polar. I have lived all over the state in some unbelievably pristine country. Most times bears want nothing to do with you as long as they are fairly warned of your presence. I have also seen times when no matter what you do, you have no choice but to use deadly force. In my own personnel opinion, one must spend allot of time around bears to understand their intentions, mood and level of aggressiveness. I never go into the bush without a weapon suitable enough to put down a large bruin.
I have too many eyewitness accounts of bear encounters to elaborate here.
We stress knowing how to avoid confrontation with criminals... why don't bears get the same courtesy? I do not stress any such thing about criminals. I go where I like and when within reason. if a criminal happens to be there, and he attacks me, well too bad for him. If someone wants to do me harm I will defend myself.
As for bears, come on now, people do stress using good bear sense, but a firearm is always a good idea in bear country for self defense as in when being atacked, not when you merely encounter a bear. Why not be reasonable and stop posting what seems to me to be a troll; please keeping in mind this is a primarily firearms site, not a nature lover's site (although I am sure others here like me appreciate nature).
As for bears, come on now, people do stress using good bear sense, but a firearm is always a good idea in bear country for self defense as in when being atacked, not when you merely encounter a bear. Why not be reasonable and stop posting what seems to me to be a troll; please keeping in mind this is a primarily firearms site, not a nature lover's site (although I am sure others here like me appreciate nature).
The Tourist
member
mister2 said:
Agreed. But when was the last time a coastal bear broke into your house and boosted your flat screen?
In fact, the only time I've heard of a bear stealing anything, it was a corn liquor still on a Jimmy Buffett album.
My point is that we have a choice in where we hike, hunt and camp. The bear has little if any chance of vacationing at Cancun. He's going to be in the woods 24/7. And if someone is a good hunter, he knows where the bears are, and the procedures for dealing with them.
22-rimfire
Member
If bears loose their fear of humans, they can be a problem. That of course is not every bear, but a hiker, camper, or hunter needs to pay attention. Probably the most important thing is to make noise and that warns all but the meanest bear that you are in the area.
With all due respect, there are bears that will hunt people and eat them. They are few and far between, but black bears and polar bears have been known to eat people. There are brown bears that may just be having a bad day when you walk through the alder thicket.
999 times out of 1000 the bear will go the other way. But sometimes you can be doing everything right but just run into the wrong bear on the wrong day.
wyocarp
Member
There are enough attacks to warrant carrying protection.
I am nearing 50 years old and have never had an automobile accident but lawmakers feel that I should wear a seatbelt.
I have had numerous issues with animals and I don't hike anymore without a gun(s).
I am nearing 50 years old and have never had an automobile accident but lawmakers feel that I should wear a seatbelt.
I have had numerous issues with animals and I don't hike anymore without a gun(s).
TallPine
Member
I mostly carry because of trolls. I don't care if it is their bridge, I'm going to go trip-trapping wherever I please
How about the guys that don't pack a large handgun and still find themselves getting eaten or attacked? I don't know anyone who have actually shot and killed an animal in self defense. My friend did shoot at a black bear to scare it away when he was lost. I've been 3-4 feet away from a moose in a tent with my one-year-old daughter and was debating whether to shoot it or not when it was stomping the ground around me. I didn't. It's not an every day occurrance, bears getting shot or people being attacked, but it happens. Usually when you stumble on a mom and her cubs, disturb a carcass of an animal killed by a bear, or are hunting or gutting an animal the bear wants. I honestly don't know or haven't heard of people wanting to go out and just blast a bear just because. You do that and you start doing jail time and losing your guns, trucks, atv's or whatever you have when you did it. Now wolves, that's another story and another thread.
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