A Warning To LEOs

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in pennsylvania i can shoot a fleeing felon if i witness a violent felony resuting in "heinous crimes against the body", and believed that there was no reasonable possibility that the felon would otherwise be caught. a police officer has the same limitation.

a fleeing car has a liscense plate, and that liscense must be registered to somebody. this creates a reasonable possibility, even if we forget that there was no "heinous crime against the body".

fry the shooter for loosing his temper and violating the law (assuming that tejas has similar wording in relevant statute). jail the mexicans and the driver, and convict them for unlawful entry and abetting. let them serve their time in jail, and then deport those illegaly in the US.
 
Would people please remember that the officer was not convicted for shooting a fleeing vehicle, or the passengers thereof, or even causing either directly or indirectly bodily harm to one of said passengers. He was convicted for BEING A LAW ENFORCMENT OFFICIAL AND SCARING OR HARMING MEMBERS OF A MINORITY. [Sarcasm] Sorry I meant to say "violating "under the color of law" the civil rights of Maricela Rodriguez-Garcia" . [/Sarcasm] For all of you saying that he got what he deserved try to remember that under TEXAS LAW he did nothing wrong. The fact that this is even an issue is further proof that the inmates are running the assylum, and demonstrates that the federal government has moved well beyond the borders of stupidity and invaded idiocity(sp?)at the mental level.

By direct or indirect harm I refer you to the article, "The woman was struck in the lip by bullet or other metal fragments", the key words are metal fragments. If the driver had violently swerved and her head had impacted the vehicle THE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME!:banghead:



P.S. It's nice to be back and posting.
 
something is up with Mexico, they must have cut some major drug deal with the US goverment.

All these people are being prosucuted for doing there job.(i would suspect as not to step on mexicos toes and they are sure making alot of demands to the US that would have been laughed at years ago) so what he shot an illegale mexican he shouldnt have been here in the first place. The border gaurds that where sent to jail for doing there job. The drug dealers that held up a national gaurd station (dont know much about that one though)
 
Good. The cop should be charged. I can't shoot someone after they stop being an immediate threat, and neither should a cop.

You also don't have a sworn duty to apprehend criminals do you? No didn't think so. You shouldn't spout off at the mouth when you don't know what you're talking about. :rolleyes:
 
ironic

"You also don't have a sworn duty to apprehend criminals do you? No didn't think so. You shouldn't spout off at the mouth when you don't know what you're talking about. "

could you point out the apprehend criminals line in that oath? i thought it was enforce the law. and has been pointed out cops in most places aren't allowed to shoot ya in the back in this case. in fact the cop says he was shooting at the tires. even he didn't intend to shoot up a vehicle with 9 folks in it. i hope there is some way his defense can accent that he was shooting at tires and the jury aquits. se this guy didn't hide evidence and has a good chance and it would send the ag a message.

but assuming you have bupkus on the oath, thanks for the iroiv humourous moment
 
Steve in PA said:
Sorry, a fleeing vehicle in this situation does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Just because it happened once (attempting to run over the LEO) doesn't mean it would happen again.

You're right. It doesn't mean it will happen again. But can you argue that it's unreasonable to believe it is likely to happen again?

The assailant has demonstrated willingness to use the vehicle as a weapon by attempting to run over the police officer. Consequently a reasonable person could conclude the likelihood is high that the assailant would repeat this behavior in order to elude Law Enforcement.

If Federal Law does not allow deadly force when these conditions exist - the officer is screwed.
 
could you point out the apprehend criminals line in that oath? i thought it was enforce the law. and has been pointed out cops in most places aren't allowed to shoot ya in the back in this case. in fact the cop says he was shooting at the tires. even he didn't intend to shoot up a vehicle with 9 folks in it. i hope there is some way his defense can accent that he was shooting at tires and the jury aquits. se this guy didn't hide evidence and has a good chance and it would send the ag a message.

but assuming you have bupkus on the oath, thanks for the iroiv humourous moment

Please show me where I said that was contained in the "oath". Just because you don't say those words when being sworn in does not mean it is not part of your duty or job description. I don't recall a part in the oath about issuing traffic tickets, doing business checks, offering fingerprinting for residents, clearing up disputes, or directing traffic......all of which we would agree are a part of the job description, aka duty, of a police officer.

The fact that this deputy was not prosecuted under state law or for any form of assault proves my point in that he followed the law and did his duty. Why don't you leave your hate at the door and look at something objectively. Sopt immediately assuming the officer is guilty of something just because he gets to use a gun when you couldn't. I think you're turning green actually. :rolleyes:

Also what law enforcement training have you undergone in order to state that "in most places aren't allowed to shoot ya in the back". Ignorance abounds it seems as in very many places, Texas included, police officers are allowed to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon who poses a danger. You know, like the type who try to run down police officers.
 
Rep. Ted Poe, Texas Republican, called the prosecution and conviction of Hernandez, known to his friends as "Gilmer," "another example of how the federal government is more concerned about people [who are] illegally invading America than it is about the men who protect America."

About sums it up.
 
I cannot believe some of the post on this thread, fact is the border area is a war zone and it continues to grow worse each week, the cops on the border daily deal with drug runners, illegals, in truth a rough group and in many cases officers are alone several miles from back up. The government aim (in my opinion) is to send a message to law enforcement so the the flow is not stopped.
Please do not be so quick to condemn an officer until you have been in the same situation.
 
"in pennsylvania i can shoot a fleeing felon if i witness a violent felony resuting in "heinous crimes against the body", and believed that there was no reasonable possibility that the felon would otherwise be caught. a police officer has the same limitation."

Care to point me to the section of law that allows this???? I've posted the sections that cover use of force, which includes deadly force to make it easy for you. There is a section that covers law enforcement but pay attention to the entire section as certain things must be in place for them to use deadly force, not just the fact that the person is fleeing.


§505. Use of force in self-protection.

(a) Use of force justifiable for protection of the person.—The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.
(b) Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force.—
(1) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:
(i) to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or
(ii) to resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:
(A) the actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest;
(B) the actor has been unlawfully dispossessed of the property and is making a reentry or recaption justified by section 507 of this title (relating to use of force for the protection of property); or
(C) the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.
(2) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:
(i) the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or
(ii) the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:
(A) the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and
(B) a public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.

(3) Except as required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.
(c) Use of confinement as protective force.—
The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime.


§506. Use of force for the protection of other persons.

(a) General rule.—The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(1) the actor would be justified under section 505 of this title (relating to use of force in self-protection) in using such force to protect himself against the injury he believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to protect;
(2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and
(3) the actor believes that his intervention is necessary for the protection of such other person.
(b) Exceptions.—Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section:
(1) When the actor would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand before using force in self-protection, he is not obliged to do so before using force for the protection of another person, unless he knows that he can thereby secure the complete safety of such other person.
(2) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand if he knew that he could obtain complete safety by so doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause him to do so before using force in his protection if the actor knows that he can obtain complete safety in that way.
(3) Neither the actor nor the person whom he seeks to protect is obliged to retreat when in the dwelling or place of work of the other to any greater extent than in his own.


§507. Use of force for the protection of property.

(a) Use of force justifiable for protection of property.—The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary:
(1) to prevent or terminate an unlawful entry or other trespass upon land or a trespass against or the unlawful carrying away of tangible movable property, if such land or movable property is, or is believed by the actor to be, in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(2) to effect an entry or reentry upon land or to retake tangible movable property, if:
(i) the actor believes that he or the person by whose authority he acts or a person from whom he or such other person derives title was unlawfully dispossessed of such land or movable property and is entitled to possession; and
(ii)(A) the force is used immediately or on fresh pursuit after such dispossession; or
(B) the actor believes that the person against whom he uses force has no claim of right to the possession of the property and, in the case of land, the circumstances, as the actor believes them to be, are of such urgency that it would be an exceptional hardship to postpone the entry or reentry until a court order is obtained.
(b) Meaning of possession.—For the purpose of subsection (a) of this section:
(1) A person who has parted with the custody of property to another who refuses to restore it to him is no longer in possession, unless the property is movable and was and still is located on land in his possession.
(2) A person who has been dispossessed of land does not regain possession thereof merely by setting foot thereon.
(3) A person who has a license to use or occupy real property is deemed to be in possession thereof except against the licensor acting under claim of right.
(c) Limitations on justifiable use of force.—
(1) The use of force is justifiable under this section only if the actor first requests the person against whom such force is used to desist from his interference with the property, unless the actor believes that:
(i) such request would be useless;
(ii) it would be dangerous to himself or another person to make the request; or
(iii) substantial harm will be done to the physical condition of the property which is sought to be protected before the request can effectively be made.
(2) The use of force to prevent or terminate a trespass is not justifiable under this section if the actor knows that the exclusion of the trespasser will expose him to substantial danger of serious bodily injury.
(3) The use of force to prevent an entry or reentry upon land or the recaption of movable property is not justifiable under this section, although the actor believes that such reentry or caption is unlawful, if:
(i) the reentry or recaption is made by or on behalf of a person who was actually dispossessed of the property; and
(ii) it is otherwise justifiable under subsection (a)(2).
(4)(i) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if:
(A) there has been an entry into the actor’s dwelling;
(B) the actor neither believes nor has reason to believe that the entry is lawful; and
(C) the actor neither believes nor has reason to believe that force less than deadly force would be adequate to terminate the entry.
(ii) If the conditions of justification provided in subparagraph (i) have not been met, the use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that:
(A) the person against whom the force is used is attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim of right to its possession; or
(B) such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

(d) Use of confinement as protective force.— The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he can do so with safety to the property, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime.
(e) Use of device to protect property.—The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of a device for the purpose of protecting property only if:
(1) the device is not designed to cause or known to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily injury;
(2) the use of the particular device to protect the property from entry or trespass is reasonable under the circumstances, as the actor believes them to be; and
(3) the device is one customarily used for such a purpose or reasonable care is taken to make known to probable intruders the fact that it is used.
(f) Use of force to pass wrongful obstructor.—The use of force to pass a person whom the actor believes to be intentionally or knowingly and unjustifiably obstructing the actor from going to a place to which he may lawfully go is justifiable, if:
(1) the actor believes that the person against whom he uses force has no claim of right to obstruct the actor;
(2) the actor is not being obstructed from entry or movement on land which he knows to be in the possession or custody of the person obstructing him, or in the possession or custody of another person by whose authority the obstructor acts, unless the circumstances, as the actor believes them to be, are of such urgency that it would not be reasonable to postpone the entry or movement on such land until a court order is obtained; and
(3) the force used is not greater than it would be justifiable if the person obstructing the actor were using force against him to prevent his passage.


§508. Use of force in law enforcement.

(a) Peace officer’s use of force in making arrest.—
(1) A peace officer, or any person whom he has summoned or directed to assist him, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. He is justified in the use of any force which he believes to be necessary to effect the arrest and of any force which he believes to be necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest. However, he is justified in using deadly force only when he believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or such other person, or when he believes both that:
(i) such force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape; and
(ii) the person to be arrested has committed or attempted a forcible felony or is attempting to escape and possesses a deadly weapon, or otherwise indicates that he will endanger human life or inflict serious bodily injury unless arrested without delay.

(2) A peace officer making an arrest pursuant to an invalid warrant is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the warrant were valid, unless he knows that the warrant is invalid.
(b) Private person’s use of force in making arrest.—
(1) A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if he were summoned or directed by a peace officer to make such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of deadly force only when he believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or another.
(2) A private person who is summoned or directed peace officer to assist in making an arrest which is unlawful is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the arrest were lawful, unless he knows that the arrest is unlawful.
(3) A private person who assists another private person in effecting an unlawful arrest, or who, not being summoned, assists a peace officer in effecting an unlawful arrest, is justified in using any force which he would be justified in using if the arrest were lawful, if:
(i) he believes the arrest lawful; and
(ii) the arrest would be lawful if the facts were as he believes them to be.
(c) Use of force to prevent escape.—
(1) A peace officer or other person who has an arrested person in his custody is justified in the use of such force to prevent the escape of the arrested person from custody as he would be justified in using if he were arresting such person.
(2) A guard or other peace officer is justified in the use of force, including deadly force, which he believes to be necessary to prevent the escape from a correctional institution of a person whom the officer believes to be lawfully detained in such institution under sentence for an offense or awaiting trial or commitment for an offense.
(d) Use of force to prevent suicide or the commission of crime.—
(1) The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent such other person from committing suicide, inflicting serious bodily injury upon himself, committing or consummating the commission of a crime involving or threatening bodily injury, damage to or loss of property or a breach of the peace, except that:
(i) Any limitations imposed by the other provisions of this chapter on the justifiable use of force in self-protection, for the protection of others, the protection of property, the effectuation of an arrest or the prevention of an escape from custody shall apply notwithstanding the criminality of the conduct against which such force is used.
(ii) The use of deadly force is not in any event justifiable under this subsection unless:
A) the actor believes that there is a substantial risk that the person whom he seeks to prevent from committing a crime will cause death or serious bodily injury to another unless the commission or the consummation of the crime is prevented and that the use of such force presents no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons; or
(B) the actor believes that the use of such force is necessary to suppress a riot or mutiny after the rioters or mutineers have been ordered to disperse and warned, in any particular manner that the law may require, that such force will be used if they do not obey.
(2) The justification afforded by this subsection extends to the use of confinement as preventive force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime.
 
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If he shouldn't be in jail for shooting at a fleeing car that had tried to run him over, then you and I can shoot at fleeing cars that tried to run us over. Right?

This isn't about immigration, or color, or politics--although plenty of people will be glad to make it so. It's about using deadly force when it was not authorized by law.
 
If he shouldn't be in jail for shooting at a fleeing car that had tried to run him over, then you and I can shoot at fleeing cars that tried to run us over. Right?

This isn't about immigration, or color, or politics--although plenty of people will be glad to make it so. It's about using deadly force when it was not authorized by law.

Thank you for illustrating my point exactly. It's a case of I want to hang this guy because he is granted a power that I don't have and I don't like it. As a non-sworn citizen your right to use deadly force stops when you or others around you are out of immediate danger since you have no duty to apprehend a criminal. However, as it has been pointed out numerous times a person with police powers, aka police officer, deputy sheriff, etc., has the right to use deadly force to apprehend a fleeing felon in many states, including Texas. This deputy followed the law and the federal government didn't like it and decided to charge him with violating someone's civil rights, basically sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

Oh and for another example here is New Jersey's Use of Force law, which is as you can imagine a lot more strict than Texas, yet still allows deadly force to stop a fleeing felon.

B. Use of Deadly Force
1. A law enforcement officer may use deadly force when the officer
reasonably believes such action is immediately necessary to
protect the officer or another person from imminent danger of death
or serious bodily harm.
2. A law enforcement officer may use deadly force to prevent the
escape of a fleeing suspect
a. whom the officer has probable cause to believe has
committed an offense in which the suspect caused or
attempted to cause death or serious bodily harm; and
b. who will pose an imminent danger of death or serious bodily
harm should the escape succeed; and
c. when the use of deadly force presents no substantial risk of
injury to innocent persons.
 
Your failing to read the section correctly, a LEO cannot just resort to deadly force to stop a fleeing person. Certain things must be in place first, like;

a. whom the officer has probable cause to believe has
committed an offense in which the suspect caused or
attempted to cause death or serious bodily harm; and
b. who will pose an imminent danger of death or serious bodily
harm should the escape succeed; and
c. when the use of deadly force presents no substantial risk of
injury to innocent persons.

All those "and'" are very important by that I mean 3 factors need to be inplace or made note of before the LEO can fire. In the case of the van driver trying to hit the LEO, part (a) is in place.

Unless the LEO has ESP or has knowledge of his actions (like the driver just shot several people, etc), there is no way he can say part (b) was in place.

And, unless he claims he didn't know there was anyone else in the van, he put innocent people in danger by firing at the van so part (c) would have prevented him from firing.
 
Steve I never meant to apply that law to this case. There is further restrictions on not being allowed to shoot at moving motor vehicles which would have further prohibited shooting in this instance. However, my point was that under the law police ARE allowed to use deadly force in order to stop a fleeing felon, and yes there are restrictions put upon it. But after all it is NJ we're talking about.

Edit: There are further examples I could offer such as in my current position as Military Police working with the NSA I am authorized to use deadly force to prevent the theft of classified material. There isn't even a requirement for any imminent danger.
 
i still hope

that his claim he was shooting at tires was true and will help him beat the rap.at least his sheriff has his back
 
This isn't about immigration, or color, or politics--although plenty of people will be glad to make it so. It's about using deadly force when it was not authorized by law.

If it were about using deadly force when it was not authorized, then he would be prosecuted by the state of Texas, not the Feds.
 
Mesperceptions

While I agree that shooting someone in the back is a no no, many news reports fail to differentiate just how far away the vehicle was past him when he began shooting. If the vehicle was right next to him and it appeared the driver was intent on circling for a second chance + a fast trigger finger these four shots could very easily have come before, during, after etc.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_174_29/ai_n8968386

There are too many questions here. Sorry, I can say the police office should perhaps recieve a warning/reprimand etc. at most. Jail time? I find that a tad on the laughable side. Although putting a good cop in jail is hardly a laughing matter.
 
You also don't have a sworn duty to apprehend criminals do you? No didn't think so. You shouldn't spout off at the mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.

Wow, did I strike a nerve?

Who else smells bacon?
 
10 years in prison for injuring one of the passengers

The passenger's felony?

Reports said Hernandez fired shots at the blue Chevrolet Suburban's rear tires as it sped off after being stopped for running a red light. Acquitted on a second count regarding injury to another passenger, he will be sentenced March 12 at the Del Rio court.

Not being versed in Tx traffic law, is fleeing a felony? Let's assume for the sake of discussion it is. The position of the fed here seems to be that it's inappropriate to engage deadly force when the risk to passengers is significant, as it was here. Not discounting that the driver from more than one account did apparently swerve toward the deputy, he did then have the right to defend himself against that threat. However, it has been well discussed here that the gun is not the first answer to a given problem nor the only answer. The position of Texas LE seems to be ... Oh well, your bad or tu malo...

It is a mantra of THR moderation to allow the facts to come out. It would seem the facts have been well hashed out here and the jury of 12 considered the actions to be a deprivation of rights.
 
Quote:
You also don't have a sworn duty to apprehend criminals do you? No didn't think so. You shouldn't spout off at the mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.

Wow, did I strike a nerve?

Who else smells bacon?

i dont want to get into another discussion about a leo shooting someone but name calling is a no-no
 
thexrayboy
we need to see about getting legislation passed that explicitly states if you enter this country illegally you have ZERO civil rights.
The problem with that is the same as the Gitmo legal wrangling: if you HAVE no rights, then how was THAT decided in your case? Without a trial, or a hearing, or a lawyer?
If thexrayboy were to be classified wrongly, by mistake, or malice, there would be no way to prove your innocence, since you would have no legal rights.
There must be SOME rights to start with, if only to decide that you should lose them – otherwise, people just “disappear”, as in some South American countries.
 
Who else smells bacon?

Oh so Highroad....


I will say that during a FATS training a while back it had a scenario just like this incident. Simulated river is contacted and proceeds to try and run the participant down. Upon one replay, three headshots were counted as driver was speeding away. "Good..... good.... excellent!" was the LE Use of Force instructor's response to the class.

If a driver will recklessly try and commit assault w/deadly weapon on a peace officer to get away, do you think he will have any more regard for any citizen from this point on? Looks like imminent danger to society to me- which authorizes the "Fleeing felon" rule in deadly force. But this is just California. Your rights may vary.

Justin
 
The ONLY thing wrong here is: he was not charged by the State DA for his crimes. Thankfully when the DA attempted to cover up this crime and hinder justice, the Feds came in.
 
Quote:
"Who else smells bacon?"
--------------------------------

I don't particularly like cops.
I don't particularly dislike cops

But this is THR, and I know I did'nt like that statement.
Rise above the immature name calling and debate the issue on it's merits (or lack of).
 
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