A serious question for LEO's

[mmike87]

First off, let's keep this civil. Please don't turn this into a LEO bashing thread, as that is not my intent here. This is intended as a serious intellectual exercise.

My question is regarding self defense against LEO's. As with anyone, you can have a "bad cop" who breaks the law, possibly endangering a citizen.

This is certainly not the norm. I am not implying that. I understand this is a sensitive topic at times and I admit that the majority of LEO's have only good intentions.

So my question for LEO's is this. Under what circumstances would you personally, not legally, but personally as a LEO support the right of a citizen to defend themselves against a policeman "gone wild".

For example, if a person were walking down the street and was mistaken for a crime suspect. Suppose this suspect had just shot a fellow police officer. The citizen is NOT the perpetrator of the crime, but fits the description. The cops, admittedly angry at their friend and fellow officer's death, begin to beat the "suspect." Badly - causing serious bodily injury. The citizen, fearing for his or her life, employs deadly force defending his or herself. With or without a gun, that's not important. These officers were not necessarily bad people - but as humans fell prey to extreme emotional stress.

Again, this is not intended as any sort of LEO bashing thread. Those that want to go that route can go elswhere. This is intended to be a serious intellectual discussion.

I am interested in how LEO's or former LEO's FEEL about this, not with any specific legality.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Puppy]

If I was that innocent citizen I wouldnt be thinking about using deadly force to defend myself, I would be thinking .... *CHA-CHING!*

 

[Ezekiel]

As a former state officer, I am aware of situations wherein the wrong guy was arrested. While those are always ugly, the first and best chance of survival is to not resist arrest. Moral? Ethical? All that crap goes out the window.

Quite simply, in my cumulative career, once I had my hands on someone they were not getting away unless one of us was injured. (Not "hurt", but "injured". There is a difference.) Unless you are about to die, it is not wise to injure an LEO.

If you are about to die, resistance my still be your worst alternative. Why? Because, if guns are involved, you are likely to definitely die should you actively resist.

I'm not saying it's fair. That's why -- in theory -- armed LEO-type folk are trained, scrutinized, and polygraphed before being turned loose on society.

 

[Jeff White]

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...SeqEnd=9300000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961.

(720 ILCS 5/7‑7) (from Ch. 38, par. 7‑7)
Sec. 7‑7. Private person's use of force in resisting arrest. A person is not authorized to use force to resist an arrest which he knows is being made either by a peace officer or by a private person summoned and directed by a peace officer to make the arrest, even if he believes that the arrest is unlawful and the arrest in fact is unlawful.
(Source: P.A. 86‑1475.)

Your example is totally incredible. I think you may have been watching too many cop shows on TV.

If you use force to resist an officer, you're just going to escalate the situation to the point where you'll be seriously injured or worse. If you need to fight the police, you hire a lawyer and fight in court. That's the way the system is set up. You have little to no chance of prevailing in a physical fight out there on the street.

Jeff

 

[mmike87]

Ezekiel - Stupidity of such an action aside - if said LEO's were the initiators of the unjustified actions against the citizen (the citizen was NOT resisting and was NOT the right suspect) and the citizen DID successfully defend themselves, would you feel they were justified in doing so?

Again, this is all purely hypothetical.

 

[mmike87]

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...SeqEnd=9300000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961.


Your example is totally incredible. I think you may have been watching too many cop shows on TV.

If you use force to resist an officer, you're just going to escalate the situation to the point where you'll be seriously injured or worse. If you need to fight the police, you hire a lawyer and fight in court. That's the way the system is set up. You have little to no chance of prevailing in a physical fight out there on the street.

Jeff

Again, I am making no statement on whether it's smart or not. Simply trying to see how people would feel about it IF someone successfully DID defend themselves. It is at least POSSIBLE.

And no, I don't watch cop shows very often at all.

The law you quote above simply says that no matter what you can't do squat. I am not too sure I agree with that.

Edit - I will agree that the example IS incredible. I think I stated that in the first post - it's a purely made up hypothetical situation. Perpahs its never happened in all of recorded history. Maybe it has. Or will. Not. Who knows? It's just a hypothetical situation.

 

[griz]

I'm not a LEO, but for clarification: Are you asking about an officer not involved in the incident or an officer coming upon the scene?

 

[Ezekiel]

Ezekiel - Stupidity of such an action aside - if said LEO's were the initiators of the unjustified actions against the citizen (the citizen was NOT resisting and was NOT the right suspect) and the citizen DID successfully defend themselves, would you feel they were justified in doing so?

Again, this is all purely hypothetical.

In a word? "No."

First, and I'm not trying to be an ass, but how can you both "not resist" and "successfully defend" youself? Second, in such a situation, "defend" can only mean "kill". Anything else, and the LEO continues to go for the arrest.

Even in a catastrophe, killing an LEO puts you away for life, at best. (See Mr. White's post.)

 

[mmike87]

In a word? "No."

First, and I'm not trying to be an ass, but how can you both "not resist" and "successfully defend" youself? Second, in such a situation, "defend" can only mean "kill". Anything else, and the LEO continues to go for the arrest.

Even in a catastrophe, killing an LEO puts you away for life, at best. (See Mr. White's post.)

No one is reading the scenario. You were not resisting, but begin being beaten. The beating was not initiated by any resistance on your part.

While being beaten, you fear for your life. You have not commited any crimes - this is totally a case of mistaken identity.

 

[mmike87]

I'm not a LEO, but for clarification: Are you asking about an officer not involved in the incident or an officer coming upon the scene?

No - someone involved. The person beating you with the nightstick for no other reason other than he/she THINKS you're the guy that committed a fatal act against another officer.

 

[trueblue1776]

yeah, this delicate, how do I put this? YOU WON'T WIN!

One cop turns into twenty cops really quick! Right or wrong, call a buddy on the force, or a lawyer. I'd opt for a buddy on the force, keep things civil.

I can personally say that I back my guys up 100%, maybe I didn't know one of my guys was a crook. A cop will take a cops word over yours. No one wants to stone wall you, but we have got to stick together. Fighting a cop is a bad situation.


Hank

 

[R.H. Lee]

The chances of surviving an armed encounter with a group of LEO's is slim. If you are somehow unfortunate enough to find yourself the victim of a beatdown due to a case of mistaken identity, and you are armed, you'd better just surrender. If you resist, you'll probably die and your survivors may collect a sum of money at some point in the future, but that's hardly consolation. If you surrender, you may very well be vindicated and compensated down the line.

Mostly, you're just very unlucky.

 

[Ezekiel]

yeah, this delicate, how do I put this? YOU WON'T WIN!

"Thanks." I was trying so very hard to be delicate that I danced around the point.

 

[mmike87]

yeah, this delicate, how do I put this? YOU WON'T WIN!

One cop turns into twenty cops really quick! Right or wrong, call a buddy on the force, or a lawyer. I'd opt for a buddy on the force, keep things civil.

I can personally say that I back my guys up 100%, maybe I didn't know one of my guys was a crook. A cop will take a cops word over yours. No one wants to stone wall you, but we have got to stick together. Fighting a cop is a bad situation.


Hank

I agree. You probably won't win. But IF you DID succeed (again you thought you were going to die) I was just curious as to how LEO's would feel about it.

Yes, it's an admittedly outrageous scenario. Like I said, it's simply an intellectual exercise.

 

[griz]

I think you have given LEOs an impossible situation. In every scenario I can imagine any involved officer would have to assume that the other officer was dealing with a suspect that was using deadly force to resist. No practical option there, the officers will attempt to shoot you. Should your hypothetical play out and you disable every officer in sight, my non-lawyer opinion is that you would be tried for resisting arrest and probably murder.

A real lose-lose situation, just take your beating and sue later.

 

[Ezekiel]

I agree. You probably won't win. But IF you DID succeed (again you thought you were going to die) I was just curious as to how LEO's would feel about it.

Yes, it's an admittedly outrageous scenario. Like I said, it's simply an intellectual exercise.

"Feel about it?" Okay, "I'll try."

When LEO's screw up -- it happens -- nobody is more upset then they are.

The bottom line, however, is that "nobody gets hurt." I'd be mad as hell at the dumbass who either did, or nearly did, make me shoot him: even if he were being unjustly "handled".

Then, I'd remove my shield and walk home. (You'd be canned before making it back to the station anyway...rightfully so.)

 

[mmike87]

"Feel about it?" Okay, "I'll try."

When LEO's screw up -- it happens -- nobody is more upset then they are.

The bottom line, however, is that "nobody gets hurt." I'd be mad as hell at the dumbass who either did, or nearly did, make me shoot him: even if he were being unjustly "handled".

Then, I'd remove my shield and walk home. (You'd be canned before making it back to the station anyway...rightfully so.)

Thanks. I am not trying to pass any judgements here, just trying to ask a tough question.

Fortunately the scenario described above is pretty unlikely.

 

[Zak Smith]

Posted without comment

John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=177&invol=529

"Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed."

 

[whm1974]

Fortunately the scenario described above is pretty unlikely.

More likely, and HAS happend in distrater areas, cops joining looting looters or stealing themselfs. Can you shoot then?

-Bill

 

[jcoiii]

Let's take this to the best situation in which I could recommend "resisting." It falls not into the "officer makes a mistake" but into the corrupt officer category. A uniformed officer is in the act of commiting a violent felony against you or your family, theorhetically, I'd think that would be the time to defend yours. Still not a great scenario, but I think I could excuse that if I found out another cop was for example, assaulting a woman.

 

[HankB]

I remember reading that there's some provision in Texas law for resisting the use of excessive force from an LEO.

A quick perusal of the Texas Penal Code gave me this:

§ 38.14. TAKING OR ATTEMPTING TO TAKE WEAPON FROM PEACE
OFFICER, PAROLE OFFICER, OR COMMUNITY SUPERVISION AND CORRECTIONS
DEPARTMENT OFFICER. (a) In this section, "firearm" has the
meanings assigned by Section 46.01.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally
or knowingly and with force takes or attempts to take from a peace
officer, parole officer, or community supervision and corrections
department officer the officer's firearm, nightstick, or personal
protection chemical dispensing device with the intention of harming
the officer or a third person.
(c) The actor is presumed to have known that the peace
officer, parole officer, or community supervision and corrections
department officer was a peace officer, parole officer, or
community supervision and corrections department officer if the
officer was wearing a distinctive uniform or badge indicating his
employment, or if the officer identified himself as a peace
officer, parole officer, or community supervision and corrections
department officer.
(d) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the defendant took or attempted to take the weapon from a peace
officer, parole officer, or community supervision and corrections
department officer who was using force against the defendant or
another in excess of the amount of force permitted by law.

Take a look at part (d). "a defense to proesecution" isn't the same thing as "go ahead, it's OK" and it appears to place the burden on you to show that excess force was being used . . . but in principle, the law would seem to recognize that sometimes, resistance may be legally justified.

If the LEO were totally corrupt (like we saw on some of the video coming out of New Orleans after Katrina) that would be another story.

I agree with a previous poster that the best time & place to fight the cops is in court, when armed with a good lawyer.

 

[tuna]

How about a more "realistic" scenario - but not by much...

You are home at 122 X street, and armed - as many here are. The cops are raiding 221 X street, and get the numbers screwed up on the paperwork. Your door is kicked in, someone yells "Police, on the ground" (or some such).

You have done nothing wrong - so you know that there is no reason for a police raid on your home, so you figure a home invasion. You see weapons and fire one or two shots while heading to the safe room, where you call 911 and eventually things get sorted out and you are able to "surrender". One of your rounds scored a hit and you killed a cop.

Assuming you made it safely to the safe room, of course - where do you stand legally?

I know, you're probably dead at the sight of your weapon, but other than that...

 

[CAnnoneer]

It is best to let them say they are sorry through the number of decimal places on the check...

 

[dangit]

How about a more "realistic" scenario - but not by much...

You are home at 122 X street, and armed - as many here are. The cops are raiding 221 X street, and get the numbers screwed up on the paperwork. Your door is kicked in, someone yells "Police, on the ground" (or some such).

You have done nothing wrong - so you know that there is no reason for a police raid on your home, so you figure a home invasion. You see weapons and fire one or two shots while heading to the safe room, where you call 911 and eventually things get sorted out and you are able to "surrender". One of your rounds scored a hit and you killed a cop.

Assuming you made it safely to the safe room, of course - where do you stand legally?

I know, you're probably dead at the sight of your weapon, but other than that...

Have you heard of Cory Maye? This is more or less what happened to him. He's now on death row in Mississippi.

 

[kahr40]

. Your door is kicked in, someone yells "Police, on the ground" (or some such).

If they identify themselves as police or leo and you shoot one of them you are f####d. Simple as that. Doesn't matter that they got the wrong address. Look up the case of Corey Mane. If they identify themselves as police let them in. For god's sake don't flash a weapon. Do what they say. Deal with it in Civil Court after the fact.