9mm is cheaper & performs well, 45 is more proven, why all the agencies going 40S&W??

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Tradition is the only thing keeping the .45 ACP going. Not really, but I thought I'd start with an attention getter.

The .40 throws a heavier bullet at about the same velocities as the 9mm. No contest, point to .40. The .40 gives about the same destructive energy as the .45, but with higher velocity for more consistent expansion. Plus, costs less and allows higher mag capacity. Point to .40.

Having said all that, if you've done your job and know how to shoot your choice well and to point of aim, and know where to aim, any of the "Three" will do its job.

K
 
Why did PDs switch? Couldn't say for sure, but here's my theory:

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there were people with nicknames such as 'Machine Gun,' 'Baby-Face', 'Bugsy' and the like. These people liked to escape the scene of the crime in automobiles. At that time, autos were made of metal. The .45 ACP and .38 Special cartridges didn't seem to do a good job of punching through car bodies and the odd 'bulletproof vest' that these folks wore. Cartridges such as the .38 Super and .357 Magnum tended to do a good job of punching through those barriers.

I have no idea if this is true with modern vehicles, with their plastic externals.

Since cops are likely to have to tangle with cars on a daily basis, the ability to shoot through one if need be may've been a major consideration. The .40 was probably sold as an 'improved 9mm'. Bigger caliber, similar velocity. The .45 was, many years ago, insufficient (from what I've heard) in the punching-through-cars department. Folks making the gun-change decision may've accepted ancient results as gospel. Couldn't say.
 
The .40 throws a heavier bullet at about the same velocities as the 9mm. No contest, point to .40. The .40 gives about the same destructive energy as the .45, but with higher velocity for more consistent expansion. Plus, costs less and allows higher mag capacity. Point to .40.
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The .45 throws a heavier bullet at about the same velocities as the .40. No contest, point to .45. The 9mm gives about the same destructive energy as the .40, but with higher velocity for more consistent expansion. Plus, costs less and allows higher mag capacity. Point to 9mm.
any of the "Three" will do its job.
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to this we all agree.the .40 is an adaquate service round,but so are the 9mm and .45.
 
Does it really matter?

I'd be more concerned about going with what works best for me. And quite honestly, in the average imagined situation, any of the three mentioned will work. I can handle all three.

More important than caliber chosen is the platform you decide to use. The platform has to be reliable. Very reliable. Second, you have to find a load that works it in it reliably. In other words, it has to be a load that functions consistently and is consistently accurate. No sense in buying a box of ammunition that's the latest "ultra/tactical/whatever" $35/per 20rd box if it causes your weapon to jam and/or isn't as accurate in the weapon as you like. Or causes more recoil than you can reliably handle. After that, you can bother with capacity. If you want/need more rounds without reloading, then go higher capacity. Just remember that capacity is never a substitute for reliability and capacity. A few things to think about, although they are my opinion:

1. Don't bother carrying if you aren't willing/ prepared to shoot.

2. Don't shoot if you aren't willing/prepared to kill.

3. Number 1 is directly related to Number 2. This is serious.

4. Carry only that with which you are reasonably certain you can stop a threat with. Face it, shooting to stop is a both a goal and an ideal. Killing is a very real and sometimes necessary result. Killing is also the most certain "STOP."

5. Not the last idea or comment (but the last comment from me on this post). There is nothing here that is an original idea from me. Literally countless people have thought of or said it before me. This is a small collection of opinions and beliefs of mine that is shared by others, the vast majority of which would be people I don't know and never will know. But it is something serious to think about amidst the ultimately silly "caliber wars."

P.S. Oh yeah, one more comment (sorry :D). When it comes to the caliber wars, doing your homework is a good thing. Also, looking at data (that has evidence and/or is coming from a source you trust) is a good way to learn what the various calibers (and loads of said calibers) will or are capable of doing. Once you have this info, you can compare that with what you can handle and come up with a better idea of what you should be carrying.
 
BULL! You may not care for a 1911 which is fine. But don't use the "it don't fit" story. One of the strengths of the 1911 is it is so adaptable to particularly small handed people.

My youngest daughter stands 4' 10" at about 95lbs. She prefers my 1911's to any of my other hand guns...
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Ok... I never knew there was an "it don't fit" story so there's no way I could be repeating it. I held the gun and my fingers wouldn't reach. I've had two different instructors and three different gun salesmen try to see if I was holding it wrong and after various pointers I still couldn't reach the safety or the magazine release without using my off-hand. Can I shoot it? Sure. Can I reload it in a combat situation? Not very well. All eventually decided it was a less than ideal situation for me in a defense situation. I'm not singling out the 1911. I doubt any full size handgun frame would work well in my case, and I'm sad about it because I certainly didn't want it to be that way.

So I'm glad your daughter who's 4'10" loves to shoot it. I think that's great. However, don't think that her being able to shoot it well makes me a liar. She may have longer fingers than I do even though she's 5" shorter in height.
 
The more opinions I hear, the more undecided I become.

.45 hits harder, but with more felt recoil.

9mm doesn't hit as hard, but is quicker on the follow up shot.

But... I've fired a Glock 26 9mm, and that little sucker was jumping all over the place. Accuracy for me (catcher's mitts for hands) was terrible. Then again, a full sized heavy 1911 is much more controllable and accurate. But for CCW, size and weight matter...So I guess it's a case of
"Figure it out for yourself, bonehead!"

There will never be a consensus on the issue.

I think I'll be the first kid on the block with a shiny new HK P30, and learn to adapt to the weapon and the rounds that it fires.
 
Another thought; depending on the ammo chosen, a lot of lost ground can be made up. The personal defense rounds are intended to impart all of their energy into the target. That could make all the difference. But I still think that getting shot with a .22 short would absolutely ruin your whole day. So, in my opinion (we've all got one), any weapon (in any caliber) that you are able to master in terms of accuracy, is probably the best weapon in the world. For you.
 
Hits don't really matter, what matters is you have 18 rounds handy.

When you run out of ammo in the middle of an altercation/SD scenario as you carried 8 rds of 45, or any other single stack in 9mm, 40, 45 or a real handcannon and have to reload while taking incoming, you'll think "what matters is you have 18 rounds handy" [ without a reload ].

People have died reloading while the action is still "on", trying to solve a SD scenario they were thrown into.

At 4-5 rds per second, with the mantra from some that you need to shoot them until they are on the ground, 8-9 rds is gone in under two seconds. Make it two BG's or more [ very good possibility these days ], and 8-9 rds just isn't likely to last long enough to stop multiples before having to make a mandatory reload.

I'd rather reload when I have a chance to do so making it my choice than having to reload while taking incoming. 18rds would last 4+ seconds without a reload. Which would you rather have if you knew it was going down, 8-9 or 18?

Brownie
 
"Hits don't matter"

What insanity. If that's the case, then don't bother shooting at all. In fact, don't have a firearm.

You better make those hits, or the threat doesn't stop. Making those hits brings a less likely need for a reload.

Brownie, I see what you're saying. The multiple assailant argument has much merit. Higher capacity should never take the place of training and skill, though. A guy shooting a 7/8 round pistol who's making 7 or 8 hits on target beats a guy with 18 rounds at his disposal, but only hits the target 4 or 5 times out of 18 shots.

Having said that, if you can really do the business with a glock 17, you're on my team. The guy with the 1911 just needs a few more mags, if the fight is long, know what I mean? :)
 
Having said that, if you can really do the business with a glock 17, you're on my team. The guy with the 1911 just needs a few more mags, if the fight is long, know what I mean?

I understand exactly what you're saying:D

Brownie
 
One absolute, more ammo than you may need is better than less Ammo than you need.

The real question is how much ammo do you need? I recommend that you carry one more round than you need. Just to be safe.

If you are going to be hit by human wave attacks, you will probably need more ammo than any weapon can hold. I have survived some of these attacks. I had enough ammo.

If you are going to be attacked by one guy, How much ammo do you need. That is a much more difficult question.

Just keep adding Bad Guys to your scenario, until you can't stop them anymore.

What we each need is enough ammo +1 for any practical scenario we feel we may run into. If you run into more than 2 guys, better lay your sidearm down and carry a rifle/Carbine/Shotgun. Now some folks may be confident in taking 3 or more gunmen on at once. I only have a few years of military combat experience. And I wouldn't if I could help it. I prefer the NIKE defense when more than one bad guy is involved in a civilian gun fight. If I have to I will fight, but not by choice.

The good news is that the vast majority of the time, the civilian bad guys don't handle getting killed real well. They will usually break off their attack if one or two get hit, let alone killed. It doesn't always work that way. That's why I carry more than one magazine.

Hope springs eternal. Sometimes I carry the 8+8 of one of my 1911's, some times I carry the 16+15 of one of my Browning/FN Hi powers'. On rare occasion, I may be carrying the 16+15 of my Glock 19. Because of arthritis, I cannot use my SIG 228, 229, 225, or 220 anymore.

I am sure that the survivors of other firefights can help me with their real life experiences.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Chieftain,
You probably have the most lucid postings of any I have read in this entire thread!!

In addition to the Nike, I would add the Richard Petty defense and the "You know better than to go into that neighborhood" defense!!

Avoiding trouble in the first place is the best way not to get into it and works 99.9999999% of the time!!!

For the rest, the caliber question can be solved by the advice of my CCW instructor, which is: Fire until the threat goes away!!
Only then does the ammo question enter in.
For example (those of you who DO NOT live in the Phoenix AZ metro area may, without loss of generality, skip over this) I carry more ammo when I HAVE to go to Maryvale than I do walking to the Circle K here in Buckeye.

Concertizing the abstraction, being aware of your surroundings and the time, using common sense and avoiding places where you might get into trouble, are going to work better than carrying the latest whizz bang tacticalkool mega sidearm of whatever caliber. But IF you have to be in such a place, then carrying enough ammo appropriate to the perceived threat level is a good thing. This does not, however negate any of the above!! In fact, it heightens it!! You have to be MORE aware of your surroundings and be prepared to use whatever means are at your disposal to escape BEFORE a threat escalates into violence!! Whatever business you might have to be in such a place certainly is not worth your life!!
 
I was told from a member in the law enforcement community that the Pennsylvania state police saw the problems LAPD were having trying to stop criminals in their tracks that the 9mm did not have the stopping power needed. So the PA state police went to .40. It almost has the stopping power a .45 has and alot less recoil. Now the PA state police think they need more stopping power without less recoil, so now they will be wasting more of my tax dollars :cuss:and are switching all of their standard issue pistols to .45 gap. Which means I will be able to pick up a inexpensive turnback .40. Thats what I was told.
 
Why go to the 45GAP why not just go to 45ACP, its cheaper than 45GAP and if people can handle the 40 recoil they can handle the 45!
 
The real question is how much ammo do you need? I recommend that you carry one more round than you need. Just to be safe
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That sounds about right :)
 
Chieftain,
You probably have the most lucid postings of any I have read in this entire thread!!

In addition to the Nike, I would add the Richard Petty defense and the "You know better than to go into that neighborhood" defense!!

Avoiding trouble in the first place is the best way not to get into it and works 99.9999999% of the time!!!

For the rest, the caliber question can be solved by the advice of my CCW instructor, which is: Fire until the threat goes away!!
Only then does the ammo question enter in.
For example (those of you who DO NOT live in the Phoenix AZ metro area may, without loss of generality, skip over this) I carry more ammo when I HAVE to go to Maryvale than I do walking to the Circle K here in Buckeye.
QUOTE]

Mr DenFoote,

Thank you for your comments. Roger your Maryvale observation too.

We may need to have a cup of coffee or such together. I am in Sun City. I am a Bonafide old fart.

Lived for 30 years on the other side of the valley in Mesa just moved to the west side a year ago. My daughters were born and raised there.

Although I am a Florida Boy, I married a Girl from LA. when I finally got out of the Corps, I refused to live in California. That was in 76, if anything my decision was spot on. You couldn't pay me to live over there.

Besides they all come here and Californicate Arizona.

I much prefer the free states of Arizona or Florida vs the peoples republic of California.

Go figure.

Fred
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Marketing by the Gun manufacturers. Cheap prices to get Departments interested in new guns.

It has a 9mm size frame, and holds more rounds than a .45 in a larger frame.
9mm is the light fast round with lots of penetration, .45acp round is the slow heavy manstopper with match grade accuracy.

40 S&W? I owned one for a while, and didnt care for it at all. Much less pleasant to shoot than a .45.
 
Originally posted by Ghost Tracker: Police Departments now regularly deal with applicants (and eventually rookies) who, unlike past generations, have NEVER fired a gun, ANY gun, before their first Firearm Orientation Class during Police Training. Departments are also dealing (under legal & cultural pressure) with an ever-increasing number of female officers. Hand size, physical strength and previous firearm experience all attribute to a now-required "sensitivity" on the part of the Department to their officers who are required to CARRY guns but are unable to QUALIFY with large .45 acp autoloaders. It's the same issue the FBI had when they wanted to issue 10mm pistols. Female agents filed lawsuit after lawsuit claiming that a 10mm qualification requirement was "discriminatory" because the weight & recoil was more easily handled by a male agent!
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Got any links to something talking about these lawsuits?
 
Now the PA state police think they need more stopping power without less recoil, so now they will be wasting more of my tax dollars and are switching all of their standard issue pistols to .45 gap.
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This is correct. I'm supposed to head to the range soon with a trooper friend to try out his new Glock, which he picks up next week.

By coincidence, I ordered a HK P2000 in .40 yesterday. It should be here in time to make the trip, too.

Maybe I'll post a compare & contrast range report.
 
Well we have already discussed the reasoning behind the 40, personally I think it's a great round, it's not currently in my stable, but I am looking to readd it back in.

Here's what I shoot:

Competition Gun/Daily Shooter: 9mm
Carry Gun: 9mm (going to get a 40 as a medium concealed carry with a 45 as a large concealed carry)
Home Defense/Weekly fun gun: Suppressed 45

The 40 is a great round in short barrel, small frame guns. When size is not a concern the 45 is a great round. And when you have to go small and stay in a major pistol caliber you can go 9mm.

What I am looking at for carry guns:
9mm: Walther PPS or Kahr, or Keltec
40: Hk P2000SK
45: Hk 45c (the new one coming out)
 
I Love the .45!

For being a bit of a caliber war, at least we stayed respectful for the most part. For the record my HD gun and favorite SD gun is the .45 I Love the XD .45 I now have three, one is a tactical two are service models. [when the MP comes out with their 14rd mag for their .45 I will get one!] To me the .40 is still a better stopper then the 9mm. I own two 9mm, one a Taurus 24/7 and a Smith MP full size 9mm-- they are both awesome guns! I would trust my life to my 9mm's especially since I shoot them so well. But given a choice of 9mm or .40 I would go with the .40- it is a very deadly round. The .45 trumps them both:evil:. In the end I Love them all and they all have their place.:)

The Best to all!

Frank
 
For being a bit of a caliber war, at least we stayed respectful for the most part.
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+1
I really don't have anything against the .40 and if I were in law enforcement I would have no problem with being issued one.I would have a problem and avoid certain platforms.
Its just that when the 40 was introduced I already had 9mms,10mms and .45 acps at my disposal and reloaded for them.the only way I'm getting one is if they outlaw the others or somebody wills me one ,I am a little sentimental and would never get rid of a gift.
ultimatly the 40 gets picked because its middle of the road.more power than 9mm and more rounds than the 45 ( of course less power than 45 andless rounds than 9mm. sorry couldn't help it.)but it exists because a 9mm failed in miami and the 10mm is too much for some to handle.on a side note winchester has even redesigned the silvertip line since 1986 and there are many 9mm loadings today that might have worked to stop platte.
 
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