What Do The Anti's Really Want?

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If it were obvious, we wouldn't have spent four pages going back and forth on it. We did not both accept this item at the beginning of the conversation. Maybe you still don't, but if you've agreed that we all want to be safe as opposed to anti-gunners simply wanting control for the sake of control, then that looks like a departure to me.
If you use 20 pages to keep bringing up obvious issues that doesn't make them any less obvious. You can't remove someone's liberty by imposing your will onto them without wanting control over them no matter how hard you try to spin it. Don't blame others for your unwillingness to accept it. Like I said, we all want safety but if safety was the true motivation of the antis they would pay closer attention to facts and reality.
I mentioned the VT shootings for one. The students weren't safe. Look at DC with the highest violent crime rates and strictest gun control laws. They aren't safe. And again, where CCWs are less restricted the violent crime rate goes down. None of that matters to the anti.
It doesn't matter because control is their true motivation of the movement. I've offered quotes from the founders that articulated it in a number of ways.

The fact that some antis don't think it through, won't think it through or can't think it through doesn't change the facts of the matter. If you can agree to disagree with your anti friend I don't know why it's an issue for you.
 
The fact that some antis don't think it through, won't think it through or can't think it through doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Actually, the fact that they don't, won't, or can't think it through DOES change the facts of the matter. The antis in my life fit this bill. They may want to exert control over you and me - but not as an end in itself. They are trying to control their fear.

They are convinced (by all of the media hogwash, etc) that guns are dangerous, that people with guns are dangerous, and that their lives and their children's lives are more at risk if you or I have a gun. They see controlling guns as a way to control their fears (i.e., make themselves safer). If that means controlling some aspect of your life or mine that they don't consider important or valid - well that's just unfortunate collateral damage.

We know they are wrong. We HAVE examined the facts. They haven’t. Before I came to the position I now hold dear, I was at best ambivalent about gun control. I had no grasp of the realities involved. I became motivated to diligently research the issues and, after much reading and thoughtful consideration, came to the conclusion that gun control can not produce the desired result: safety for the masses. In fact - I have concluded the opposite is true.

People who are bound up in fear are often the most strongly committed to an idea - regardless of the fallacies that support that idea. They don't want to examine the facts because such an examination may make them feel MORE fear.

I have been unpleasantly surprised to find that many people I consider to be otherwise thoughtful, literate, and open-minded have minds that are absolutely shut tight on this issue. They are unwilling to read or discuss anything that might force them to even consider re-considering their position. And that is really inconsiderate.
 
They may want to exert control over you and me - but not as an end in itself.
How exactly does that work in reality? You want to control people but don't really want control? That makes no sense. I would argue that those that hold that view haven't given it sufficient thought.
 
The problem, Jasper, is that human motivation is not an easy, clear thing in all cases. It is very easy to wish to control a thing for its own good. We do that with dogs and leashes. Licensing for drivers, as another example. The goal in those cases is not control as an end in itself. Rather, the goal is the safety of the dog, or the safety of the drivers on the road. So it is possible to desire control without the control being the desired end.

Part of the problem, too, is the usual and frequent violation of a set of rules. These are not rules in the sense of laws or manners. Rather, they are helpful guidelines for how one thinks. The First Rule is that "People are Stupid". They will believe anything they fear to be true, or that they wish to be true. Violations of this rule happen on both sides of the aisle.

The Second Rule, for the present purpose, is "Passion Rules Reason". This one is relatively self-explanatory, but it is harder to keep than it would seem. It is very easy to allow one's passions to overrule reason without realising it. It is an insidious, creeping thing. So in the end, this rule is often violated by those who think their cause is just and obvious. And again, this violation is not limited to one side of the aisle.

Violation of these rules does not make an opponent evil. We are human, and errors of thought will happen.

It does not serve our ends well, as LowSci and others have noted, if we simply dismiss those who wish to ban guns as evil, tyrranical, authoritarian, or stupid. Therefore, we should give a good faith evaluation of what the "antis" really want, and their motivations. And this good faith hearing means that we take them at their word that they wish to make a safer world. It also requires us to recognize that their passion is at the least the equal of our own, and that they are as easily ruled by their passions as we are.

But LowSci and some of the others are right, I think, in their assessment of the overall desire of the anti-gun movements. They want safety for their children and loved ones, just as we do. We do disagree about the means, and there is room for that, especially in our society. While I agree that the idea that banning guns will not be the solution, it serves us better in our work toward our goals if we allow that there are arguments to be made for the bans, and address them in a calm, reasoned manner.

The hard part is cutting through the fear and passion without becoming caricatures of ourselves. That is part of why the High Road was repaved of late. It does not serve us to reason by Argumentum Ad Hitlerum. While it is useful to note that the first gun control laws were purely racist in nature in the US, the point does not go farther or have much more weight when Hitler is added into the equation. Especially as the new laws lack those explicitly racial elements.

The ideal of beating swords into plowshares, I think, is a thing that we all would agree to be a good thing. As many of the signatures say, the hope is that you never have to resort to the use of a weapon in defense of yourself or others.

It is helpful to recognise too, that the Anti-Gun movements have more on their agenda than simply the banning of firearms. There is sweeping social reform that is hoped to make such things unnecessary. While I do not deny the socialistic nature of such programmes, I do understand their appeal, both to reason and to emotion.
 
All jokes and rhetoric aside, they want to feel safe. Much of the "logic" behind their point of view is based entirely in emotion; specifically,fear. They say they don't feel safe. That's all they want.

Too bad they can't use facts to support their position.
 
You want to control people but don't really want control? That makes no sense.

Well...I think we're really just worrying about semantics here. The point is they want to control everyone's access to guns. The motive is to get rid of guns so they can feel safer. Get it? They're not trying to control whether you or I eat chocolate, or wear our hair long, or go to church on Sunday. Controling you or I is NOT the goal - it is just a side-effect of controling guns.
 
Yes, the easiest way to enslave citizens is to disarm them.

So it is possible to desire control without the control being the desired end.

Well, this is not only a naïve but also a dangerous attitude because governments have a penchant to accrue power at the expense of the liberties of individual citizens.

What we learn from history is that man does not learn its lessons! Despite what we have learned about the deleterious effects of draconian gun control in other countries, particularly during the previous bloody century, our foes continue to beat the drums calling for more gun control.
 
People who hold, or aspire to hold high power may want to control us, starting with gun control. But I still don't think the average anti (e.g.,my brother) wants to control me or you - he wants to control his fears. And he mistakenly but sincerely believes that "getting rid of guns" is possible and effective. Of course, it is neither.
 
Well...I think we're really just worrying about semantics here. The point is they want to control everyone's access to guns. The motive is to get rid of guns so they can feel safer. Get it? They're not trying to control whether you or I eat chocolate, or wear our hair long, or go to church on Sunday. Controling you or I is NOT the goal - it is just a side-effect of controling guns.
I don't think it's semantics, controlling means controlling. In this case we are talking about guns, I didn't mean to imply anything more by my comments.

If a parent wants to feel safe and not let their child have a BB gun, for example, they are controlling the child, even if they are looking out for the child's best interest, have pure hearts and love the child. They have to be motivated to control the child (and many parents unfortunately aren't) or they won't do it. Controlling someone or something takes effort, determination and will to carry out. Controlling someone doesn't necessarily imply evil intentions or an evil nature but in this case adults of a differing point of view don't want the control, we feel we are better able to make that determination.
 
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