How can Taurus do this but not Smith or Ruger?

I am not at all worried that my J-Frame Smiths "only" hold five shots. If I cannot hit with the first five, a sixth is probably not going to help me. If I have so many opponents that I need to reload...well, I get the speed loaders out. Smith has a very popular and in-demand line with its J-Frames. Why would they change it?

6? Heck, my Kel Tec P11 is smaller, lighter, and holds 13! I mean, if firepower matters, there are options. The Rossi M461 is a neat little Colt D frame sized .357 that holds 6, also. To my knowledge, it isn't offered in .38 Special, but heck, you can shoot .38s in it. The trigger is a bit rough/stiff on the Rossis, but usable and controllable and smooths out over time. The M85 trigger, at least mine, is second to nothing, light and very smooth.

I really like my M85 Taurus, but I ain't really worried about increasing the capacity by a round.

Easy - Taurus uses superior steel and heat treatment. JK, I don't know - they could make them, but the demand is small and the liability related to Kbs increases with strong +Ps - not worth the tradeoff.

Easy - Taurus uses superior steel and heat treatment. JK, I don't know - they could make them, but the demand is small and the liability related to Kbs increases with strong +Ps - not worth the tradeoff.

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Uh? Rossi's are 6 shot J frame sized .357 MAGNUMS and Smith has 5 shot J frame .357 magnums, already. Possible kabooms? No, I don't think there's enough economic reason to go through all the stuff to redesign the J frame as a 6 shooter, plus, a 6 shooter is bulkier, significantly, than a 5 shooter, especially in a pocket gun OR IWB. While my 6 shot Taurus 3" 66 isn't that much heavier or bigger IWB than my SP101 5 shooter, I sure notice that fatter cylinder when I carry it. It shoots a little better, but the SP101 is more comfy to carry. I prefer the SP101's round butt shaped Hogue, too, but it just feels more comfy tucked into the IWB rig and part of it is the slimmer cylinder.

I have a 5-shot 85 UL (which I really like) and don't really feel that a sixth round is necessary. If I want more capacity I'll carry my Glock 33 with 10 rounds of .357 Sig...

MCgunner: the Rossi M461 is the same size as a colt dective (excuse my spelling) its in the middle of a j and k frame smith. so its rather hard to get a holster that fits it nice. im trying to find one now since i carry my rossi as my CC with 2 HKS speed loads with magnum loads. i also shot a 3.5inch group with it right out of the box with HSM reloads at 15 yards in DA. so its not that bad since im not a great shot.

Quick Draw - Holsters for the Ruger SP101 fit the Dick Special nicely - might want to try them out with your Rossi.

rd

rdrancher, i might just have to try that, thanks alot.

I'm sure that if either S&W or Ruger felt that there was really a market for such a gun, they could certainly make one. Both companies are, however, run by bean-counters; if they can't make economic sense of it, they won't do it.

As much as I enjoy my several 2" .38 revolvers (2 Colts, 1 Taurus, and 1 Smith), I had an epiphany one day when I placed one of my Browning Hi Powers next to a .38 snubbie. They're very nearly identical in size, and the Hi Power holds three times as many rounds (with aftermarket 15-round mags).

100/1000ths = 0.100

A S&W J frame cylinder measures 1.305",and a Colt D frame cylinder measures 1.405". That difference is 1/10th of an inch,10/100ths.,100/1000ths.,etc...

Quick, I sorta got the impression lookin' at it that the 461 was just a short barreled M971 which I had and was the same mid way between K and J frame size. Neat, though, in that gun, a full 4" barrel and only about 30 ounces, made for a great hiking gun and I even took a Javelina with it, once. But, it's not MUCH bigger than J frame. And, as I said, Smith and Wesson builds .357 Magnums on the J frame, so the very idea that a .38 special 6 shot on a J frame gun is going to be stressed enough to blow up with any factory available .38 load, +P or not, is comical. That was sorta my point.

And, yeah, nicholst55, my P11 is smaller, lighter, easier to conceal, and easier to carry a reload concealed and packs 13 rounds of 9mm at 400+ ft lbs a pop. I think of it as an improved J frame that's square and loads from the bottom, DAO and ready to go. I find myself carrying it FAR more than my small framed revolvers for that reason.

Actually, Colt was doing it in the 1920s. The Colt Detective Special is simply the Colt Police Positive with a 2" barrel.

For almost 30 years, Colt had the snubbie market until S&W came out with a new frame, the Chief Special, in the 1950s.

Taurus doesn't seem to be afraid to try a lot of new designs and see what happens. Taurus is constantly introducing and stopping production of models all the time. They really are willing to go out on a limb.

A lot of other firearms manufacturers seem to introduce models only when they think they can get good life span out of them. nothing is wrong with either business model, but it appears to be a business management decision from the top that takes these companies in different directions.

besides- a lot of what taurus does is rehash previously successful designs- like 9mm revolvers or the D frame colt you mentioned.

Maybe they read the Zines and the boards and read all the lamenting of the long lost Colt D frames and their six shot capacity.

Here's my take:

A J frame is the perfect compromise between size and the number of rounds it will hold. If you want to pocket carry it's about the only revolver that will do so comfortably for most people.

The Colt DS/Agent is the perfect small belt gun. A little too big for pocket carry, but gets one more shot than a J frame.

Ruger SP101 is the same size as a DS, holds same number of rounds as a J frame but will hold up to a heck of a lot more abuse than either.

Taurus can afford to try new designs because they rarely make anything new, they just copy what others have done (usually not as well) so they have little R&D into it. My ported stainless 85 is relegated to the gun safe as it does nothing as well as the others (I have all 4 guns I've mentioned).

JMO

5 shots not 6!? Oh my goodness...I never realized I was so severly un-equipped with my 5 shot SP101. Thanx so much for enlightening me of my situation.

If one is so concerned about needing 6 rather than 5, maybe they should consider one of the 8 shot Smiths or maybesome super hi-capacity semi-auto. After all...just 5 shots...

Or maybe they should wear a black trench coat and carry an AR-15 shorty on a Tackycool sling around thier neck. Hard to beat 30 rounds of .223!

On the otherhand, maybe spray & pray with a 17 round auto-pistol isn't as effective as a J-Frame 5-shooter and a guy that can shoot it well!

rcmodel

Taurus can do it because their Customer Service is so excellent & their Lifetime Warranty is so inclusive that any cylinder-strength issues simply aren't a concern...they'll FIX 'em, uhhh, forever.

Taurus can do it because they will put it at a price that most uninformed people will buy it because it looks good, feels good and is the "right" price. I believe they know that 90% of the population who buy their guns may shoot it once or twice a year and for that useage it probably will not break. They are NOT targeting those in the "know" or those who desire a higher quality firearm. It does appear that those of us who do desire a higher quality firearm are in the minority of gun owners. They sell more guns at a cheaper price with cheaper and less skilled labor and possibly inferior metals thereby making more profit.

To the OP, I don't know.

You can argue magazine cap all day long, but a small pocket revolver will is the thing to have.

Will one round make a diff? I don't know, but I hate to wonder how if the first five failed to do it.

S&W had the nice M12. Loved that handgun. Wished I bougth it instead of telling a friend about it. Now, it resides with his G'ma.

The SP101 could be made with a sixth shot. Wish it did. I might still have one. Its just too damn heavy for me.

I have a 817, the Taurus seven shot snubbie. I like it, as all the Taurus's I have had. Its my nightstand weapon. Right there with my Tactical Nova. I do shoot it more than twice a year. It has held up nicely for the last 3000 rounds or so. I'll get back with you in about three years when I get 10,000 through it.

CA makes a six shot Police Undercover, that I was able to shoot last month. I loved it! Its built on the BullDog frame and cyclinder.

I can only guess that folks have been brainwashed into thinking that autos never jam now and ammo will always work when needed. Otherwise, I can see a reason for the gun makers not to make a smallish six shooter.

22lr

A Little History

Introducing a new frame size is a major commitment for a revolver manufacturer. S&W used to have an I frame, intended for their .32-caliber cartridge, in which it chambered six rounds. They also offered five-round versions, in .38 S&W, which is actually a bit fatter than the .38 Special. When it came time to offer a small .38 Special revolver, they needed to lengthen the cylinder and the cylinder window, hence the J frame. For a time, S&W offered both I-frame and J-frame models but soon decided to shift the old I-frame chamberings to the J frame. Many years later, when they lengthened the cylinder and cylinder window, to accommodate the .357 Magnum cartridge, they also beefed up the frame but, at least for the general public, broke with tradition and continued calling it a J frame. I suspect that internally the extended J frame is now referred to as an E frame.

(S&W introduced a new frame size, the L frame, shortly beofre American law enforcement began its transition to autoloading pistols. I don't know if they have sold enough of them to justify the introduction of the new tooling.)

I just saw the Taurus 856 in one of my gun mags. It's a compact M85 frame, but with 6 shots of 38spl. Rings of Colt D frame to me. So how can Colt do this since the late 50's and Taurus can do this today, but S&W or Ruger can't? I know people like the Cheif Specials but I also hear a lot of compliants about just having 5 shots. Also, revo's are still popular so I'd assume that a 6 shot snubbie would sell at least enough. Hell, I'd buy 1.
I just won't buy a Taurus.

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Hi,

IMHO, I believe that Smith already knows the answer to this situation. A six-round cylinder makes a gun too thick to make it the perfect "pocket" revolver for the working professional or experienced civilian enthusiasts.

Frankly, I wouldn't think there would be much of a market for a premium, six-shot J-frame .38, due to that fact.

NOW . . . IF YOU ARE TALKIN' 6-SHOT, BELT CARRY IN A HOLSTER . . . S&W has had that market covered for decades already.

Smith does offer these, and my 3" barreled M65-3 has the same cylinder dimensions as a Colt DS or Agent, but is a hell of a lot more gun to have in a fight than the smaller Colt.

POCKET CARRY DIFFERENCES IN SIZE . . .

Here's one of my J frames, next to a 1961 Colt Agent, the aluminum-framed Detective Special. I've legally toted for years, and for pocket carry, the Colt never sees the light of day! It's too big! Heck, my K-frame speedloaders also work in the DS/Agent Colts!



Five shots a bad thing? Nawwww . . . having five accurate shots in your pocket beats having six in a gun that you can't truly hide in the pocket!

Oh, did I say accurate? Here's a 10 yard, standing/unsupported 5-shot group shot with the above M36 . . . into a 1" square target. I don't feel under-gunned at all.


Nawwww . . . its not my primary handgun, nor rifle or shotgun, but it is a wonderful pocket tool that can be toted anywhere that's legal with great ease!

The M36 is perfect in baggy pants/shorts . . . and my Airweight M37 is perfect ANYTIME!



TAURUS SELLS TO A DIFFERENT MARKET . . .

1. They sell to first time shooters with no experience in carrying and shooting firearms.

2. They sell due to price, and throw in a few features that sound appealing to the novice . . . features that aren't borne out on the street.

3. They are much cheaper than a new Smith . . . and then lose their value if ya try to sell 'em used.

They are decent bullet launchers, but not ones I will stake my life on.

T.

I have a J-frame and it is a great, light pocket carry pistol. I'm with the "if you can't hit it with 5, 6 probably won't help" contingent.

The Taurus offerings are interesting and I may end up with one or two. I've never bought a handgun and worried about the resale value.

who cares