Seeking Advice on Purchase Permit Denial

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Matthew G

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
4
Hello,

If anyone reading this has experience or advice about this, I would greatly appreciate it.

Here is my information and what happened:

I am a 31 year old male living in Shelby Township, Michigan.
I have never been charged or convicted of a felony, demostic violence, stalking, and have never been under any care for mental health issues.

I did get in trouble for a DUI in 2003 and 2001. I deserved all of the trouble and fines, etc that I received for this. There were no injuries, accidents, or damage to public property. I have proved myself to be rehabilitated to the Secretary of State and had my license reinstated after a 5 year suspension (which I also deserved)

Wanting to own my first firearm, I went to the Shelby Township Police Department and filled out a Permit To Purchase Handgun Application last Tuesday. On Friday I received a call saying that my application was denied and they refused to tell me why, that I could call and speak to the Captain about it.

The Captain returned my phone call this Tuesday and said that he denied my app because of my record of substance abuse. I asked him what I could do to remedy this or attempt to clear up any issues/questions/problems. He said that I could fill out an appeal that goes through the FBI and that he has never had them reverse any of his decisions. He said I could wait 2 more years because 7 years seems OK for my prevoius record. He also said I could come back and fill out another application if there is a new Captain in the Police Department before then.

I could not find any information on the internet about a similiar case.
Do you think I have a chanc of getting this reversed?
Do I need a lawyer?
Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Matthew
 
Certainly file the appeal. But in the end, it might be more financially prudent to wait the 2 years. :(

Or like Rugerlvr says so much more eloquently that I could, maybe you should move if your not to too tied to MI. A fresh start never hurt anyone.


-T.
 
For those that don't know, the MI purchase permit is basically a receipt that shows the gun dealer you passed a back ground check. It is nothing more or less. Instead of NICS doing the back ground check, the police do it, and issue the purchase permit which shows that you passed the check. If you have a CPL, you don't need a purchase permit.
 
You probably do need a lawyer. You should check out the legal beagle forum on migunowners.org. A gun friendly lawyer moderates the forum, and can answer your questions. He usually advises people not to talk about specific things on the internet, and will give you his phone #.
 
Thinking about it, you may have problems on these 4473 questions...

c. Have you been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation? (See Important Notice 6, Exception 1.)
Click to expand...
EXCEPTION 1: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside, or the person has had civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should answer “no” to 12c or 12i, as applicable. A person who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence also is not covered by the prohibition unless: (1) the person was represented by a lawyer or gave up the right to a lawyer; and (2) if the person was entitled to a jury, was tried by a jury or gave up the right to a jury trial. Persons subject to this exception should answer “no” to 12i.
Click to expand...

A DUI is a felony. Could the judge have sentenced you to more than a year? Note the use of the word "could"

And...

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Click to expand...

Gray area up for interpretation. Sounds like the cops interpreted for you.


-T.
 
If, and only if, all your alcohol issues are under control now, filing the appeal seems like the way to go.

If the appeal is denied, waiting for two years doesn't seem too bad.
 
You need to talk to an attorney.

I recommend Jim Simmons. Go to the Michigan Gun Owners board at www.mgouc.org (or is it .com)

Jim has a forum there for legal issues. PM him through that forum to get his phone number and then give him a call.

It sounds like you'll actually need to hire an attorney to get this resolved. Jim at least will tell you straight up if this is a fight you can win.
 
I just thought of something else.

If you get a Michigan Concealed Pistol license you no longer have to get a "Permit to Purchase" before you buy a pistol. You use a different form available from the State Police website and available at the gun dealer.

That would be one way to sidestep your problem. Although you'd still have to bring the gun in for a "safety inspection," it would sidestep the whole "not issuing you a permit" issue.

Now, if they refuse to do the "safety inspection," that's another thing entirely.

Before you do anything else, call Jim Simmons. He knows his stuff, so listen to what he has to say.
 
I agree with Rob (though I don't personally know Jim Simmons).

Last I checked, police departments did NOT have discretionary authority to deny a purchase permit because they don't like you, even though some try to. However, you'll need a lawyer who can look at your actual record and discuss things with you. While I don't know Jim, I do know Rob and I'm sure he's making a good recommendation. If you have two DUI convictions under Michigan's DUI laws, you might have a Form 4473 problem, but it's best for a lawyer working for you, with all the relevant information, to look into that.

I wouldn't post any more details here, other than maybe telling us if you get a good resolution.
 
First offense for DUI carries 6-9 months in jail less than a yr so NO is ok on that one.
The unlawful user of a substance, again NO because alcohol is still legal.
Fill out the form and send it in, he is just trying to dissuade you.
 
He refers to two separate DUI's. I think second offense DUI is or can be a more serious crime, i.e. felony. I also don't know if any DUI had other factors, like an accident or someone gettng hurt, which could make it a different crime that is a felony.

Short story, the only useful advice for him is to consult a lawyer who knows this legal issue AND works for him. Anything else is just idle talk.
 
doc2rn said:
The unlawful user of a substance, again NO because alcohol is still legal.
Click to expand...

The question, as it appears on the 4473...

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Click to expand...

If he was driving under the influence, that is an unlawful use of alcohol, a controlled substance.


-T.
 
Btw, for the original poster, Jim just happens to be in Shelby Township. That's not why I recommended him, but it does make it convenient.
 
This may not even be a NICS issue, but rather a state issue. The Michigan permit to purchase existed long before the NICS thing and has its own rules. On the other hand, I've known the local law enforcement in Michigan to make up their own rules as they go too.
 
Wow, thank you for all of the great responses.

A 2nd DUI is not a felony. A 3rd is. No I was not in any accidents/property damage. I could not have been sentenced to more than 90 days for either of them, I did not get any jail time.

I definitely can't get a CCW. 7 years is required for this. I know this because 2 of my friends were told they could not get CCWs until 7 years. They have similiar records as mine, but had no problems getting purchase permits.

I did thank the Captain for his time. I did listen to his concerns, I did not confront or argue with him, like I said, he was very polite.

The reason I asked this question on a forum is to find out more information from people more knowledgeable than myself about this.

I would like to thank all of your for your responses, I am going to take some of the advice.

I will update as I find out more. Thanks again.

Matthew
 
No state in the union will issue a CCW to an applicant who's been denied a purchase permit. So that "end run" is not going to fly.
Click to expand...
Don't know if your from Michigan, but it's different here. Several PD's/Sheriffs offices will make up their own rules for issuing Purchase permits. They do so unlawfully, but who's to stop them. Michigan is a shall issue state for Concealed Pistol License's, and those rules are for the most part adhered to. Just because a Chief decided to deny him doesn't mean that he can't get a CPL. Some people actually get the CPL in order to avoid the hassles of fighting a denial for Purchase Permit. Furthermore, IIRC, I didn't think the purchase permit went through NICS. I thought it was a state LEIN check.

PS.

Another vote for the Legal Beagle sub forum and Jim Simmons at michigangunowners.
 
The purchase permit has nothing to do with NICS. You still have to do the NICS check to purchase any gun from a FFL. Keep in mind that the 7-year deal for CCW can likely be applied at the chief's discretion to purchase permits because conversely, according to state law, pretty much the same quallifications one needs to buy a pistol quallifies for a CCW, so he's likely using CCW requirements against your purchase permit. If you live in a township, as opposed to an lncorporated city, can you go to your county sheriff? In my township, I go through the Genesee County Sheriff...
 
I don't understand how the chief of police can use their discretion to issue a permit if you pass the NICS. Which by your own admission you can.

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

If he was driving under the influence, that is an unlawful use of alcohol, a controlled substance.
Click to expand...
I always took that as, are you currently an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Not have you been convited of or have you been in the past ....
 
Posted by Trebor:
You need to talk to an attorney.

I recommend Jim Simmons. Go to the Michigan Gun Owners board at www.mgouc.org (or is it .com)

Jim has a forum there for legal issues. PM him through that forum to get his phone number and then give him a call.

It sounds like you'll actually need to hire an attorney to get this resolved. Jim at least will tell you straight up if this is a fight you can win.
Click to expand...

+1 on contacting a lawyer.

The correct url is:

http://www.migunowners.org/
 
"Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or and depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance"

The question means what it says. It's not different than if I asked you if you are wearing a green hat. You are or you aren't. Not will you, would you, or have you ever, or do you on every third Tuesday of odd numbered months during a full moon cycle.
 
If he was driving under the influence, that is an unlawful use of alcohol, a controlled substance.
Click to expand...
There is no upper limit, to my knowledge, regarding how much alcohol an adult may consume. DWI is not a crime regarding unlawful posession/use but rather a crime that pertains to a person's behavior after he consumes the alcohol.
 
ServiceSoon said:
I always took that as, are you currently an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Not have you been convited of or have you been in the past ....
Click to expand...
xjchief said:
The question means what it says. It's not different than if I asked you if you are wearing a green hat. You are or you aren't. Not will you, would you, or have you ever, or do you on every third Tuesday of odd numbered months during a full moon cycle.
Click to expand...
mp510 said:
There is no upper limit, to my knowledge, regarding how much alcohol an adult may consume. DWI is not a crime regarding unlawful posession/use but rather a crime that pertains to a person's behavior after he consumes the alcohol.
Click to expand...

I suppose I agree.

Devils advocate stuff, eh?


-T.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
(NJ) Court upholds woman's firearms permit denial
Replies
9
Views
785
Drizzt
D
R
  • Locked
Man Arrested in MI for Openly Carrying Firearm
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
thumbody
T
B
  • Locked
CCW in SHELBY CO., AL
Replies
3
Views
363
jbird714
J
M
  • Locked
Arrests Without Conviction Cause Denial of CCW Application in MN?
Replies
4
Views
421
sctman800
S
N
  • Locked
CT- Recourse if temporary/local permit not issued in time?
Replies
4
Views
344
N003k
N
Back
Top