Why NOT a Saiga-12?

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The last shotgun I bought was a Saiga. The next shotgun I will buy will be a Saiga. I have high-end Berettas for shooting clays, Benellis for birds, and Winchesters for deer and turkey. I have no need for another sporting gun at this point. But the Saiga is, bottom line, the best combat shotgun in production. Why? Because it is the only shotgun built from the ground up for fighting. It is also the only shotgun I can see getting banned outright. So as shotguns go, that is what I will buy.

You can buy a new S-12 for $600 shipped and convert it yourself for under $200. A plain-Jane conversion will stack up favorably against any combat shotgun on the market and they are easy to upgrade on your own later.

And magazines are relatively plentiful. 5, 10, 13 and 20 rounders are available, and you can get the new ProMag 10s for under $30 if you shop around.
 
Also, you can get a 10 or 12 round tube-fed, but it will have a 26-32" barrel (or have the magazine sticking out past the end of the barrel). I can have 20 rounds on tap with an 18" barrel, and follow that with a slew of extra stick mags. Life is not a three gun match, and I would bet that most of those guys won't switch until they start getting beat by Saiga-weilding shooters. They have too much time invested in their own training and practice doctrine. But for a new shooter, magazines are far easier than reloading a tube. When a reliable drop-in last round bolt hold-open is available, it will be game over for tube guns in competition.
 
I have a feeling Saiga's will rule 3 gun competitions soon.

Only in Open division, and that remains to be seen. Magazine-fed shotguns are generally prohibited from being used in the equivalent of Tactical, Limited or Heavy Metal.
 
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because they are still beaten on a regular basis by good semis like benellis at practical shotgun tournaments.

"There ya go, right there. The proof is in the pudding. There must be something to them thar inferior ergos; else the top competitors would be choosing (and winning with) Saigas."


As far as 3 Gun --- the Saiga or any other mag fed shotgun forces you to shoot in "Unlimited Class " ---- reason must be they are faster to reload ???

Also , in Europe the Saigas have been stomping the sheet out of Rem. and Benillies for the last two years. Do a search for major match results in Europe and see what the top winners are useing.

The Saiga S-12s are just starting to get a toe hold in the US --- when Top Competitors start getting beat by less talented shooters useing Saigas , you can bet that will change.
We all know that shooters in general are a bit Traditional -- hard for a Top Shooter to switch from a Rem/Ben. after they have been useing that type of SG for 10 plus years and many hundreds of shooting matches.


EDIT ---- DAMN , I type slow !!!!
 
one other question with the Saiga 12. The site i was looking at previously only had the 19" barrel. They now have the 24 inch barrels, 24 is still ok for Sluggin deer right? Obviously it would be a better setup for waterfowl now
 
Well, if you only have one magazine for it, the saiga will take longer to reload. I've also heard that the saiga magazine can crush the shell, rendering the shotgun useless, and maybe even causing a kaboom, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Most shotguns will have different ergonomics than a saiga, but I'm not sure if that's good or bad. They will also be easier to configure for hunting or clay shooting.
 
from reading other sites, the problem with the mags compressing rounds is if you leave them in the mag for over a week. I'm fine with that part. Just doing some random saiga searches I found this clip on youtube of Saiga 2007-2008 Competitions
 
the problem with the mags compressing rounds is if you leave them in the mag for over a week.
I think that would be the number one disadvantage of the saiga. You couldn't count on it for self-defense.
 
" I think that would be the number one disadvantage of the saiga. You couldn't count on it for self-defense."

You must be kidding !!!!

As has posted MANY TIMES -- you can just leave the BOLT OPEN and A MAG IN THE SG --- No Compressed shells !!!

Or as has been posted --- use a 10 or 12 rd. mag and LEAVE a shell or two out --- Still leaveing 9-11 rds. ready to go.

AND YES -- it can be counted on it for Self-Defense !!
 
I think Gunfighter hit it on the head: the traditional three-gunners wrote the rules to keep mag-fed guns out because they were a tremendous advantage. Now, back when the highly expensive and exotic Franchi 15s were the only mag-fed shotguns available and the three-gun organizers didn't want victory to be an issue of who had deeper pockets. I understand that.

I also understand the virtue in maintaining, developing and innovating the manual of arms for tube-fed shotguns. They are by far the most common shotgun in America, if not the world. People who were raised on them can be faster with a pump than an auto, but that doesn't make them faster for the population in general. Similarly, to pretend that tube-feds are superior to mag-feds for the average (or even advanced) shooter is self-deceptive.

Bottom line: with the ready availability of relatively inexpensive mag-fed shotguns, the only reason tactical matches relegate mag-fed guns to Open class is because they are technologically superior to tube-fed guns.
 
For starters, I would challenge any one of you trap/skeet guys to a round of 16 yard 5 station with 20 gauges. I will use my Saiga 20 gauge with its horrible small sight radius. I break 25's CONSISTENTLY with my 20 gauge at the 16 yard trap and with my S12 I can shoot A class... Its choked tighter than the 20 so its a little less forgiving.

It is threaded on the outside of the barrel for chokes and whatnot unlike sporting shotguns where the choke threading is on the inside of the barrel.
This is the kind of comment that is disastrous to ALL GUN OWNERS... you have claimed that a saiga is UNSPORTING because of how its threaded... That means that all nuts and bolts that are metric must be COMMUNIST BOLTS or SOCIALIST bolts cause they originated in Europe... and are UN-AMERICAN because of the odd size used on them... Really dude... think before you go saying inane drivel that hurts ALL gun owners with BAD SPIN!!! The media shats on us enough, we dont need our OWN doing it too! now, with that said...
Since people do not believe they exist...
If anyone would like PICTURES of Saiga chokes, please email me, and I will send you pictures of IC, Mod., and Full chokes. A thread protector is just that... it protects the barrel threads from dings or dirt. The externally threaded barrel allows for the rapid exchange of not only fixed chokes but brakes, polychokes, and just simple cool stuff that does nothing more than get oohs and aahs... Aesthetics... Who would have thought!?!?!
I have nothing against traditional shotguns... I own several doubles, and several pumps. I use a pump when I go deer hunting because of the fully rifled barrel and its incredible accuracy. If Saigas had rifled barrels I would use one of those IF IT WAS THE MOST ACCURATE SHOTGUN of those I own!
As far as bird hunting... Saigas come in a 24" barrel with the ability to accept chokes... and they make a 2 round magazine FACTORY... yes, they are hard to come by... but you can plug a 5 round box mag in just a few seconds more than it takes to plug a mag tube.

Why do Binelli's constantly dominate the competition fields??

Well... Actually... they dont... Sorry to burst the bubble here guys... the SHOOTER dominates the field. If that same WINNING SHOOTER would train to that winning level that he did with his Binelli... his times would be UNTOUCHABLE with a Saiga... Its just that they weren't the "gun of the elite" back when all the competition was first starting out... the data is out there... a Saiga will cycle faster than a Binelli. Sorry guys, thats how it is... Dont cry about it... look it up...

I am trying to remember what other ignorance I read here... things about bad triggers... I dont need a 1.5 pound target trigger in my shotgun... I dont know anyone that does... you point you pull... simple... I dont get it... The Saiga trigger has some take up... so do a LOT of guns on the market these days. Hell... I have a Marlin 17 rifle thats got a WORSE trigger than ANY of my saiga shotguns... *** is up with that?!?!?

how do they point? Well, I dunno... TRY ONE OUT. Until you hold one and shoot it, I would say you have no room to make *ANY* comments good or bad. Kinda like saying you dont like a particular food... if you have NEVER tried it, how do you know you dont like it?!?!?

No, Saigas are NOT really meant for the duck blind... thats true... but they are not incapable of performing there... besides... how often do you shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3... etc..etc... ??!?!?

I would say if you and everyone 4else in the blind get off 6 rounds, that wing is going to be over for a few minutes and you would have time, while the dog retrieves to load a few rounds back into a couple mags... If you shoot more than 6... and there is no time... well, you will be done hunting in about 10 minutes... or you are such POOR shots, you *NEED* to make the time for reloads in between...

I really just take offense that some self proclaimed "gun enthusiasts" are no more than imbeciles who are afraid of that which they do not know, and condemn that which they are not familiar with because its different, under the claim of "not as sporting as..." As gun lovers we need to EMBRACE all that is out there, because sure as Christ made apples, once one is limited, it wont be long before the bounds are overstepped again... When autoloadres are gone... we dont need them... we have pumps... those are next... we dont need pumps, we have doubles... when those are gone... we dont need those, we have singles... when those are gone... what can ya hunt with a single anyways?!?!? What do you have LEFT?!?!? NOTHING!

And that my friends is EXACTLY the way the powers that be want you to think so little by little they can step in and REMOVE the second amendment one gun at a time... and we will have you to thank for helping them do it... because who needs a "tactical shotgun!??!?"

Where does it end?

Think people... really!

:barf:
 
SuperNaut said:
2. Conversion to PG is expensive and destructive (meaning it isn't a simple parts swap)
I disagree on the "expensive" part of this statement.

On a Saiga shotgun w/o a threaded muzzle, it cost me all of $40 for a fire control group. I used a take-off buttstock and pistol grip from a Romy G kit I built a while back.

If you don't drill holes in it, there is no need to refinish it, as the Saigas are all parkerized before they're painted.
 
Hunters are a funny bunch. People make fun of women because they have so many shoes or are so inflexible about fashion and what is "in" and "out" of style. IMO hunters are worse, got forbid it has a polychoke or has a synthetic stock or is not blued properly. I say anyone who gives a Saiga a chance would get to be as proficient with it as any other firearm. I have a feeling Saiga's will rule 3 gun competitions soon. Skeet and Trap? They were not meant for that. They make a mean turkey and deer gun though.

But, there is no reason WHY I should think a Saiga better than my 10 an 12 gauge guns for goose hunting, now is there? I tell ya what would get me to buy one. They come out with 10 gauge 3 1/2" Saiga for 400-500 bucks, I'll try one out. :D That would really interest me. There aren't many 10s and NO autos I can afford. I saw a SP10 used for just under $1000 at a shop the other day. :rolleyes: Maybe, someday, but I'll probably be better off saving for a good used Browning BPS, frankly. Should be able to find one in the 400-500 dollar range when I get ready to look. I bought an H&R to try the gauge out on geese and I'm hooked. :D
 
I stand on my shooting record --- 25 years of IPSC , IDPA , Bowling Pin , Cowboy Action , 3 Gun etc. etc.
I learned long ago , about the time .38 Super single stacks came out , to at least TRY to have a open mind instead of a open mouth !!!!

Will I say "I AM WRONG " if need be , YES ---- example= GLOCKS.

25 years ago , I was one of the first to say "plastic guns are JUNK" , they will never hold up to thousands of rounds , they will get hot and jam,jam,jam etc. etc. -----was I wrong ??? YES , I WAS WRONG !!

Do I own a Glock ?? NO , I just don't like them.
Now , I ask ANYONE to show where I post as a Glock Hater ---- not my cup of tea but if YOU like/love Glocks , MORE POWER TO YOU.

I have to agree with IndyArms that if we don't stick together as gun owners , "they" will take us apart one by one.

Just look how some states have banned .50BMG --- do I own one ?? NOPE --- but it is fine with me if YOU OWN ONE !!!

All the above said to show that the Saiga S-12 IS NOT JUST FOR KILLING STUFF or HD or etc.
 
MCgunner -- my comment was not directed at you.

Just a sad fact that some people are closed minded to anything other than what they like.

Do a search about "colored" weapons etc ---- I don't care if someone wants a pink and purple shotgun -- it is for them and not me.
Some posters act like those people are Commies , Perverts , etc. etc.

MCgunner --- again , my post above this one was not directed at you.
 
I have moderated on the Saiga forum for a few years now... I have probably forgotten more about the AK platform of firearm than MOST firearms friendly people know... but its not about me thinking an AK is a "better" firearm than another... maybe better for some aspects, certainly not for others...

HOWEVER...

I DO need to stay on that soapbox because in this time of the US of A we are in deep guano if we all do not unify and fight back against the whittling away of our rights and freedoms as FREEMEN!

The 2nd amendment DOES NOT GUARANTEE our right to keep and bear arms... it only REAFFIRMS and REMINDS THOSE THAT BE that THAT right is GOD GIVEN, as FREEMEN we have that right INHERENTLY!

Its not about the who owns what or who is a fudd or who thinks what gun is junk... Its more about attitudes of "we dont need that.... because we have these"... That thinking is completely detrimental to our hobby and our passion. THAT is the thinking that bans guns one name/caliber/feature at a time until there are none left. and if you think I am "preaching" well, then Maybe you need to return to the pew for another sermon...

I am sorry if I come across "hot headed" but I feel the need to feed the flames to make sure we all know which side of the fight we are on... and yes, we are in one serious one!

:cool:
 
By the way, LipadJ46... Where in NY ya from???

I am about 20 miles west of Syracuse myself... we should get together and blow some rounds downrange sometime!! :)

I am actually contemplating a NY "funshoot" at my property near Seneca falls this spring/summer for a small group of like minded fellows...

Keep it in mind... :)


:cool:
 
I am in Western NY born and raised but just moved back here after being tortured by living in NYC for 10 years. That would be fun If you are ever in the area let me know my family has some property in Southern NY for shooting and hunting.
 
Well, IndyArms put it best.

Look, while I can't guarantee that a Saiga-12 is the best gun ever, or that it will "always" dominate 3-gun in the near future, it's an excellent combat weapon. It isn't ideal for sporting clays or bird, but is more than serviceable.

Anyone who has a belief that the Saiga-12 isn't that good a weapon, or "unnecessary" no. It's all about personal preference.
 
I've been a shotgun guy for decades. It's what I like to shoot. I've owned several Remingtons (870s, 1100s, one 1187 and an old model 11). I own a Benelli M3 Super 90 pump/semi that I've had for years. Great gun, though I'm going to sell it. I've had Mossbergs and Winchesters too. It wasn't until a month ago that I bought a Saiga 12 shotgun. So my view on this might still be a little bias towards what I've always known. I think I'm pretty open minded though.

I was introduced to the tube fed shotgun in my youth. I was trained with it in the Army, then later at Gunsite in AZ. It's what I know and what I'm comfortable with. I tended to go with a pump over a semi, but that's just me.

After a shotgun injury to my right palm (Army stuff), I had to become left handed. This greatly affected my ability to use the pump guns as easily as I had. I still do OK, but it's more challenging. Not too long after that, I started looking at semi autos instead of pumps. Nothing against pumps. It's just what worked better for ME.

My new Saiga 12 is still being "broken in" I suppose (200-250 rounds through it so far). Anything #6 shot or above cycles like a champ. It's easier FOR ME to reload than my tube guns. It cycles faster than my Benelli too, as you can see in this video. That's not full auto either. It's a fast firing technique.

As I said, number 6 cycles great. Number 8, not so much. Check out the jams using light load #8 shot here. By polishing up some parts and not shooting as fast, it can cycle those pretty reliably, but I want it to be 100% in order to avoid Mr. Murphy as much as possible. :)

Anyway, to get more on the topic of this thread.......

So, what do I think the downsides are on the Saiga? Well, many folks have already mentioned some, but I can only speak for myself what I find better on the tube fed guns over the Saiga. Forgive me if I state something that's already been mentioned....

* Most tube fed gun are sleeker and not as prone to hang up on things. The 5 round Saiga mag is fairly low profile, but not as much as a tube gun. I know shooting prone was mentioned and I can see where that might be a consideration, if you needed to do that. Of course, tilting a Saiga a little solves this with a 5 round mag.

* Definitely, the ability to cycle really, REALLY light loads has to go to the pump. Not necesarilly the tube fed semi, but the pump. The Saiga has an adjustable gas knob for shooting lighter vs. heavier loads. They make a 4 position knob that's supposed to help out in this area even more, but I don't own one of those yet, so I can't say how they work yet.

* As has been mentioned, the "assault" mystique that some people may attribute to the AK-47 can spill over towards the Saiga-12 if you want to shoot it at a public range or use it to hunt with. It sucks and shouldn't matter what the gun looks like so long as it meets the restrictions on mag capacity and whatever else may apply for whatever you're hunting, but unfortunately, in some areas of the Country, some people might give you crap about it. I used an old Colt SP1 AR15 with a Colt 22 conversion and 10 shot mag for hunting squirrels once. The GW thought I was Rambo until he saw what it was. Then he thought it was cool. I doubt all GWs will be like that though. Tube guns are usually less conspicuous.

* Domestically made and readilly available spare parts. While I really like my Saiga, if I need a new bolt for it, they're really tough to find locally. I suppose the same could be said for my Benelli though. Domestically made products help our economy too. USA! USA! :p

* I have to say, especially as a lefty..... I HATE THE AK STYLED SAFETY!! I'm currently designing a more user friendly safety, but we'll have to see how that goes. This isn't the thread for discussing THAT though.



Anyway, that's all I can come up with right now. Note that I didn't list the advantages of the Saiga, as this thread asked about the disadvantages. Please don't get me wrong, I really like my Saiga. I'd just change a few things. That's all.


I hope this helped.



Corbin
 
Thanks Corbin, and nice videos. One question if this does get placed on the "List", will replacement parts still be available?
 
Hey Corbin-
Your Saiga should cycle light loads by now. Mine only has 55 rounds through it. I was shooting 1 oz loads, and didn't have a jam after the first 10.

You should check & make sure you have the correct number of gas holes in the barrel. If you go to Saiga-12.com and search for "vodka special", you'll find that Izhmash managed to build a few with the ports covered or missing entirely, resulting in guns that only cycle heavy loads.

Hey; there's a disadvantage to the Saiga; the plant is apparently next door to a distillery.
 
"Thanks for the responses, but I'm really interested in why the Tube-Fed Pumps and autos are BETTER than the Saiga-12," = loaded question = biased response. If you're going to go fishing for reasons why you should get a pump instead of a Saiga, then you're already made up your mind, so stop whining and go buy your pump gun.

You're assuming all pumps are better than all Saigas. Not true. Pumps may be better at Saigas at some things, but Saigas are better than pumps at some things.

That said, I'd rather have my Saigas any day.
 
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