Thinking about getting a shotgun. Semi auto vs pump and mag vs tube fed

[.455_Hunter]

The shotgun currently next to my bed is an early 70's Remington 870 Riot surplused from the South Dakota State Penitentiary in Sioux Falls. I had my gunsmith add sling swivels and a Kick-EEZ recoil pad to replace the torn original one. It's on duty at our rural mountain home loaded with four rounds of 2 3/4" Federal 000 Buck.

 

[toivo]

Any good pump or semi-auto should be fine. Pumps will run with any ammo; semi-autos can be ammo-picky, so make sure you find a load that your gun likes. I would be wary of a combo pump/semi-auto -- IMO, it's an unproven concept.

There's a reason all the most popular, time-tested shotguns have tube magazines, not box magazines. Again, just an opinion, but I think box magazines don't work well for shotguns because shotgun shells are everything (most) rifle cartridges are not: big, bulky, blunt, and rimmed.

 

[Jenrick]

Running a magazine system on a shotgun does remove one of the advantages of the tube magazine, the ability to incrementally plus up the gun. In any magazine fed system, you have to make the decision if you have enough ammo in the magazine for whatever is next. If you decide no, with a magazine system you have to change mags. Once you commit to the magazine change you are stuck with a single shot weapon until you get the new magazine in, and in general if you are going to use it as a single shot you are going to ditch the magazine in your hand to shoot. With a conventional tubular magazine, you can always just add shells as time permits. If you are conscientious with keeping the gun topped off, it's not a very limiting issue. You will not be fully loaded as fast, but you do not turn your weapon into a single shot when you decide to reload. Dropping a single shell to engage an additional target, isn't near as much ammo on the ground as dropping a magazine. Also in shotguns, you are looking at the magazine only carrying maybe 2-3 more shells than a conventional tubular magazine, not something like a rifle where a magazine can carry from 20-100 rds.

I like magazines for competition where they are allowed, as they play to strengths of the magazine system. They carry a lot of ammo, and let you onboard a lot of ammo quickly. If I have a magazine failure, it doesn't endanger life or limb, and I can carry a whole bunch of them in case I drop a few.

 

[luzyfuerza]

The OP's questions were equipment-focused as are most responses.

But somebody has to say this: once you get a quality shotgun, then get training to help you learn to use your particular shotgun to its potential!

Shotguns don't carry lots of rounds, so get training on the many ways to keep your gun loaded up in a fight.

Shotguns can handle lots of ammo types. Slugs, buckshot, birdshot, and everything in between. Experiment with various types of ammo through your gun to see how it performs. Just one example if this:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...pared-to-federal-tactical-00-buckshot.895808/

Answer all these questions through training from a competent instructor:

To sling or not to sling?

Red dot, ghost ring, or simple bead?

How do I correctly stroke a pump?

How to quickly and consistently assume a firing position from low ready? High ready? Field ready? From slung?

How do I clear malfunctions?

How do I switch ammo types on the fly?

Speed loader vs sidesaddle vs buttcuff vs sling-type ammo carriers?

How do I store a defensive shotgun that I want to be ready at short notice?

And many more.

So many get a gun and don't learn to really run it. OP, please don't be one of those people!

 

[luzyfuerza]

Oh, and once you learn how to do all this with your first quality shotgun, THEN you can decide what specific makes and models might work better for you and your shotgun tasks.

 

[Seedy Character]

Dan Carlisle, 80s Olympian, coach, instructor, and trick shooter; has several excellent videos and classes.



I attended an exhibition of his, pack in '85.
He was shooting and OLD Mossberg 500. Why?
It held 10 rounds. It was his first gun. He liked it

 

[bubbatime]

You said home defense. So I will respond with that in mind.

You also sound like a novice with little to no shotgun training. So I will respond with that in mind.

I have a tactical background. It is well known in tactical training circles, that the pump action shotgun is an experts weapon. It requires far more training than a pistol or a rifle, to become truly proficient. Sure you can put a pump shotgun in a persons hand, and give them 20 minutes of instruction from Cousin Eddy, and they will do ok with it. But they wont be proficient. If used for self defense, a person needs to know how to clear jams, how to mortar the gun to clear a stuck shell, how to change ammo, how to load while shooting, how to rack the slide with authority and not baby it, how to avoid short stroking.

The "average" low skill user (95% of folks) on the range is going to have WAY more stoppages and problems with a pump shotgun than a good semi auto.

If I was trying to set up a novice home defender for success, I wouldn't recommend a shotgun honestly. But if they insisted on a shotgun, then the Beretta 1301 and Benelli M2 Tactical should be the shotguns of choice.

I'm an 870 armorer and have rebuilt a hundred of them and absolutely love them. But I wouldn't recommend one for self defense for a novice. Not without a 2-3 days tactical shotgun course to go with it.

 

[ECVMatt]

I will agree with some of the others that a shotgun might not be the best choice for an absolute beginner. I would also agree that a 870/500/590's are hard to beat for simple, reliable shotguns. I am a lefty, but can shoot a shotgun with either hand so I like the 500/590 because of the location of the safety. I would pick the 590 over the 500 if I had a choice. It is a bit heavier and has some other differences, but I have been shooting the 590 for a couple of decades with no problems.

If you are set on a semi-auto I would look hard at the Beretta 1301. I have had one of these for a couple of years and it is solid. I mostly practice with light target loads and it has never jammed. Beretta has some newer options they just released that are set up to run form the get go. I equipped mine with some parts from Aridus Industries which took it from great to excellent. I have shot my 1301 against some fully pimped Agency Benelli's and the 1301 shot better. It is definitely worth looking into. Pistol Forum has a Beretta "Bible" thread with more info than you need, but it is interesting nonetheless.

I would stay away from magazine fed shotguns. To me they seem like a gimmick. They also add unneeded bulk, something to break, and added expense of additional magazines. I would suggest skipping this and getting training, ammo, and gear to support the platform you have chosen.

Good luck and let us know what you choose.

 

[Buzznrose]

I got so many questions.

Firstly, I hear the Benelli M4 is one of the most reliable semi auto shotguns out there. With that being said, would it function with all shotgun shells? I hear semi autos don't usually handle bird shot/light loads very well.

After some thinking about it, I was thinking, maybe I should just go with the Benelli M3 because it's got semi and pump action capabilities. Is the M3 more reliable than the M4 because it can manually pump. So like if it doesn't cycle on semi auto mode, can you basically just switch to pump action to remedy the malfunction?


Then there is the question of... are mag fed shotguns better? On first hand, it seems like it, you can buy a lot of mags, then preload them.
BUT..... I hear that shotgun shell plastic can deform when sitting in a mag too long. So it seems like mag fed shotguns are great if you're going to be in a situation that requires a ton of ammo usage.

Although, with the ammo capacity. Some tube fed shotguns have speed loaders which are almost like tube magazine or maybe more accurately clips than you can just push 4 or 5 rounds into the tube. They're bulky but would do the job. However are they more prone to getting jammed when reloading than mags? How come the military/police don't use speed loaders to reload their tube fed shotguns? Seems like there is a reason you dont see that too much. Idk. Maybe it's just a lot harder to do. There are aftermarket feed ramps I've seen on some competition tube fed shotguns that assist with speed loading them.

So Idk which is the best for general all round use. I want primarily home defense reliability, but also SHTF/combat capabilities.

Someone mentioned keltec if I'm concerned about mag capacity limits, although the one showed looked like a pain to reload. A bullpup like design? Idk. I do like how it looks shorter for more moving around a home situation.

My take on the bold text in the OP:

Nothing I know beats a Benelli semiautomatic shotgun for reliability, including many pump action guns. But there are others that are just as reliable. My Beretta and CZ semiautomatic shotguns shoot everything I feed them, mostly clay target loads, flawlessly until I get to a couple cases through them and they start to gum up. But shooting 500 rounds through any shotgun without some level of cleaning will make them all get sluggish and start to fail. After that many rounds, I have just sprayed them liberally with CLP and pressed on, but the eventual cleaning just gets more messy.

My CZ712 did have some issues with light target loads when brand new. Some oil and a couple boxes of high brass #6 shot and never had a problem after that.

Military rarely use shotguns except as breaching tool for doors. Cops use M4’s and AR’s more than shotguns these days from what I see. But shotguns with buckshot generally put the threat down with a single solid hit. And regarding speed loaders, they take a bit of training to get good and fast with.

My primary long gun for home defense is an AR because 30 > 5-8. Military and SWAT entering combat type situations carry semi or select fire rifles. But I have a loaded shotgun at the ready too.

I used to be a “pump is more reliable” kind of guy, but every other gun I own for defensive reasons is a semiautomatic. I totally trust my CZ and Beretta not to fail me. I’d trust my 50 year old Remy 1100 20 gauge too. I’d definitely trust any Benelli, and with proper vetting, probably any Browning or Winchester auto.

I have clay pigeon buddies who bought several Mossy 920’s and two had hard fails…my Mossy 500 guns fine, but I’m focused on autos in this rant.

I’ll tell you what I told my friend looking for a HD shotgun…just buy this one:

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...cz-712-utility-g2-semi-auto-shotgun/p/1477216

It is 4+1 rounds. If you want more capacity, it is easy to modify:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1005267676?pid=981689

You may need to run a few boxes of high brass loads through it first, but once it gets 50 rounds and some lube, I bet it will run great. I know three folks who have these and all run flawlessly.

YMMV

 

[cdb1]

T

 

[RH45]

You said home defense. So I will respond with that in mind.

You also sound like a novice with little to no shotgun training. So I will respond with that in mind.

I have a tactical background. It is well known in tactical training circles, that the pump action shotgun is an experts weapon. It requires far more training than a pistol or a rifle, to become truly proficient. Sure you can put a pump shotgun in a persons hand, and give them 20 minutes of instruction from Cousin Eddy, and they will do ok with it. But they wont be proficient. If used for self defense, a person needs to know how to clear jams, how to mortar the gun to clear a stuck shell, how to change ammo, how to load while shooting, how to rack the slide with authority and not baby it, how to avoid short stroking.

The "average" low skill user (95% of folks) on the range is going to have WAY more stoppages and problems with a pump shotgun than a good semi auto.

If I was trying to set up a novice home defender for success, I wouldn't recommend a shotgun honestly. But if they insisted on a shotgun, then the Beretta 1301 and Benelli M2 Tactical should be the shotguns of choice.

I'm an 870 armorer and have rebuilt a hundred of them and absolutely love them. But I wouldn't recommend one for self defense for a novice. Not without a 2-3 days tactical shotgun course to go with it.

I agree.
It's really easy to short stroke an 870.
I own, and have shot a LOT of shotguns.
Highly recommend Benelli M2, with comfortec stock

 

[DustyGmt]

If you go with a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, you won't have to concern yourself with the reliability of specific loads. You could also use either of them for any conceivable purpose where a shotgun would be appropriate through the selection of things like ammunition, barrels, chokes, etc. Also, both designs have been around for a long time and are proven, with a never-ending selection of aftermarket parts and accessories, along with factory support.

Seconded.

Any Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870 will be uber reliable and are pretty good examples of benchmark combat shotguns. I don't have any experience with the Benelli M4 but what I know of them I probably wouldn't hesitate to own one if I were looking strictly for a combat style shotgun but the 500/870 offer a lil more versatility in terms of being able to put on different barrels, etc tailored to task. The aftermarket support is excellent and either one will shoot 2¾"-3" shells (unless you buy an early wingmaster that's 2¾" only) and if you want to shoot mini-shells there are lil adapters for the mossberg that will snap into the loading port to facilitate reliable feeding of the mini's. I believe Mossberg offers a Model 590S I believe it is, that will shoot anything up to 3" including the mini's.

I wouldn't necessarily say anything against the detachable mag fed shotguns because I haven't used them enough and I know what suits me isn't for everybody else but I know of one Saiga 12 that has had some issues and i just personally prefer pump action. I think once you've spent some time training/practicing with a pump (especially if you take a good shotgun class), you may find that the magazine fed aren't that appealing because it's not all that hard to keep your gun topped off once you have the hang of it and you employ the use of cards or other on board/person storage systems. On the other hand a Benelli M4 or Beretta 1301 would be excellent and I love to try one some day, but probably I won't.

Good luck.

 

[Justin]

My experience with semiauto shotguns is that the phrase "buy once, cry once" applies in spades. Go with a good manufacturer. Benelli or Beretta.

The ones that feed from box mags look cool, but are simply not reliable in the long run, especially the ones coming from Turkey (most of the bullpup and AR-looking SA shotguns are just rebranded Turkish stuff.)