nalioth
Member
. . . but you can dent it, and then you're SOL.30mag said:
Why NOT a Saiga-12?
- Thread starter SN13
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You fellas don't want a Saiga-12. They are terrible. A fast 20 rounds of 12 gauge availability brought to you with AK reliability, can easily shoot 2-3 rounds a second (literally the fastest cycling shotgun in the world) and clean a 12 round mag in under 5 seconds. And have it customized by Tromix Corp/cut down however you want it? Yeah what on earth would you want to do with that kind of nonsense. 
The title of the thread is "Why not a Saiga-12" not "The Thread for Grumpy Old Men"
The title of the thread is "Why not a Saiga-12" not "The Thread for Grumpy Old Men"
The situation that would dent an 870 magazine to the extent that it didn't feed would probably result in an unusable shotgun anyway.
That's not an argument against the Saiga, just an observation about the supposed problem of a dented tube magazine.
It may be a valid concern with a lever rifle or a .22 like a Marlin 60, which has a heavy barrel but a sheet metal magazine. But if you squish the magazine of a 12 Gauge shotgun, chances are your barrel and/or receiver are gone, too -- and they'd be history on a Saiga, just as much as an 870.
I guess I never saw the "you can lose your magazine or it can break" as a real concern. I have 10 magazines and from what I hear people have a lot more than that. Plus the spring can just as easily go in a tube mag.
I will readily admit that a tube magazine is definitely more useful in a bird hunting situation where your shotgun mag has to be plugged to 2 rounds and you get into a bunch of birds. It is easy to stuff 1 or 2 rounds in the tube mag between volleys where if you have a removable mag it would be a pain. But in a deer hunting or turkey hunting scenario where you generally only take 1 or 2 shots then it would not really matter.
I will readily admit that a tube magazine is definitely more useful in a bird hunting situation where your shotgun mag has to be plugged to 2 rounds and you get into a bunch of birds. It is easy to stuff 1 or 2 rounds in the tube mag between volleys where if you have a removable mag it would be a pain. But in a deer hunting or turkey hunting scenario where you generally only take 1 or 2 shots then it would not really matter.
Gunfighter123
Member
Hello,
The "lose your magazine or it can break" concern should not be really a problem in a home defense type action ----- after all , if you have a 5,8,10,or 20 rd. mag/drum ALREADY in the gun , HOW would you Lose It ???
Same thing as to the mag getting "broke" ---- however it could get broke , would more then likely , break the shotgun or your arm , hand etc.
The "lose your magazine or it can break" concern should not be really a problem in a home defense type action ----- after all , if you have a 5,8,10,or 20 rd. mag/drum ALREADY in the gun , HOW would you Lose It ???
Same thing as to the mag getting "broke" ---- however it could get broke , would more then likely , break the shotgun or your arm , hand etc.
You know, you're right, you could lose a mag. Damn, we better all go back to Marlin 30-30 lever actions because they're tube-fed and you'll never lose a mag.
Do you see the folly of your argument? Since WWI military rifles have been mag fed. Enfields, Mosins (well hinged-floor plate), etc. Up to the AK-47, the AR15, etc.
But when it comes to shotguns you cling to obsolete practices because you "Don't want to lose a mag"....
AR15 & AK47, both of these become worthless without mags, compared to a tube-fed rifle. Then why does everyone bother owning one? Oh that's right, capacity and quick reload. BAM. Just like a S12.
You don't reload AR mags during combat, you reload on downtime. Just like you don't reload S12 during combat, you reload on downtime. Having 100rds (10x10rd mags) loaded and ready to go means that you can shoot 10, reload, shoot 10, etc. until you use 100rds. This will probably take you about....50 seconds to shoot, reload, shoot all 100. (without taking time to aim).
3 seconds to shoot 10, 2 to reload.
Take your favorite Tube-Feeder. Time how long it takes you to load in 8 shells, or 5 or 2. Now divide 100 rounds by the number of rounds you loaded, and multiply that number by the time it took you to load the 8, 5, or 2 or whatever. Scary long isn't it?
How long is an eternity when you're out of ammo, reloading one shot at a time, and in fear for your life? 2 seconds? I'll get 10 new rounds in the gun while you get 2. I think I'll be better off.
~SN13
Do you see the folly of your argument? Since WWI military rifles have been mag fed. Enfields, Mosins (well hinged-floor plate), etc. Up to the AK-47, the AR15, etc.
But when it comes to shotguns you cling to obsolete practices because you "Don't want to lose a mag"....
AR15 & AK47, both of these become worthless without mags, compared to a tube-fed rifle. Then why does everyone bother owning one? Oh that's right, capacity and quick reload. BAM. Just like a S12.
You don't reload AR mags during combat, you reload on downtime. Just like you don't reload S12 during combat, you reload on downtime. Having 100rds (10x10rd mags) loaded and ready to go means that you can shoot 10, reload, shoot 10, etc. until you use 100rds. This will probably take you about....50 seconds to shoot, reload, shoot all 100. (without taking time to aim).
3 seconds to shoot 10, 2 to reload.
Take your favorite Tube-Feeder. Time how long it takes you to load in 8 shells, or 5 or 2. Now divide 100 rounds by the number of rounds you loaded, and multiply that number by the time it took you to load the 8, 5, or 2 or whatever. Scary long isn't it?
How long is an eternity when you're out of ammo, reloading one shot at a time, and in fear for your life? 2 seconds? I'll get 10 new rounds in the gun while you get 2. I think I'll be better off.
~SN13
Obsolete practices? That's an interesting way to put things.
If shotguns only fired one type of load, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but they don't.
The tube mag shotgun is superior to the mag fed weapon for ammunition handling in every respect save for refilling to total capacity and clearing the weapon.
Switch from less lethal to lethal? Tube wins in terms of time, especially with a side saddle.
Switch from shot to slugs and back to shot? A tube will win that too.
Don't have downtime in a protracted engagement and have to reload from the box? A tube will win that one too.
The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."
If shotguns only fired one type of load, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but they don't.
The tube mag shotgun is superior to the mag fed weapon for ammunition handling in every respect save for refilling to total capacity and clearing the weapon.
Switch from less lethal to lethal? Tube wins in terms of time, especially with a side saddle.
Switch from shot to slugs and back to shot? A tube will win that too.
Don't have downtime in a protracted engagement and have to reload from the box? A tube will win that one too.
The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."
Because I don't disagree with you, maybe?
I said, "if it is a problem" in answer to a guy who said he had 10 magazines. Obviously, that's irrelevant.
The question is, "How many full 12 Gauge magazines would you carry in combat?" I'm not sure. But it'd be more than one, I figure.
Gunfighter123
Member
Someone --- ANYONE -- please post some links to where people UNDER FIRE took the time to switch from Buckshot to Slugs or Non-Lethal etc.
Under fire , you are going to use what ya got --- I think the ONLY people who would switch loads in a shooting situation , MAYBE police, but that would be VERY seldom IF EVER.
Go to youtube and watch some Saiga S-12 reloads --- run a stopwatch ---- They/YOU can reload a mag in UNDER 3 seconds. Now watch someone do the same with a tube-fed SG --- the time is VERY CLOSE and with the S-12 , you are loading MORE then one round.
"The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."
No , they didn't ---- main reason is PRICE !!! For the cost of a USAS12 , you could buy 3 pump SGs --- when I bought my USAS-12 , in the mid-1980s , they were almost $1000.
At that time , you could buy 3 Rem. Wingmasters for the same price and Savage,Mossberg , Win. were cheaper still.
For the military and police communities the shotgun is low man on the totem pole --- hence, price.
IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ???????
Under fire , you are going to use what ya got --- I think the ONLY people who would switch loads in a shooting situation , MAYBE police, but that would be VERY seldom IF EVER.
Go to youtube and watch some Saiga S-12 reloads --- run a stopwatch ---- They/YOU can reload a mag in UNDER 3 seconds. Now watch someone do the same with a tube-fed SG --- the time is VERY CLOSE and with the S-12 , you are loading MORE then one round.
"The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."
No , they didn't ---- main reason is PRICE !!! For the cost of a USAS12 , you could buy 3 pump SGs --- when I bought my USAS-12 , in the mid-1980s , they were almost $1000.
At that time , you could buy 3 Rem. Wingmasters for the same price and Savage,Mossberg , Win. were cheaper still.
For the military and police communities the shotgun is low man on the totem pole --- hence, price.
IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ???????
Well, if you look at military weapons history, it's not because of anything discussed here. It's because of spitzer bullets, and it goes back to the 19th Century.
And who, in combat, uses buckshot?
Again, that's not an argument against the Saiga (or for it).
Gunfighter, right or wrong, your posts are sounding like rants, not cogent arguments.
This whole thread should probably be allowed to die.
Then we should just let it die, or maybe a mod can put this thread out of it's misery. Dave M. put a couple rounds in this thread's ear
Can we leave it at this?:
ArmedBear and some others do not like mag fed shotguns. Gunfighter123 and some others think the Saiga-12 is the bee's knees.
Quick someone lock this thread.
Can we leave it at this?:
ArmedBear and some others do not like mag fed shotguns. Gunfighter123 and some others think the Saiga-12 is the bee's knees.
Quick someone lock this thread.
Are you saying that no one trains for this eventuality? The usual step up would be from less lethal to lethal.
That something is seldom done doesn't mean it is without its merits. How often are you gonna need 20 rounds of buckshot or the reload of yet another magazine? Do you practice mag changes anyways? If so why?
So what? Plan on missing a lot?
A S-12 basic+conversion is rapidly approaching or exceeding $1k, depending on the mods.
One can still get three decent pump guns for that price. The other way of making the point would be that there isn't enough value added for the mag fed semi-auto to make its price point sensible compared to the tube fed pump or semi.Again, for the price the pump shotgun gives up almost nothing to a Saiga but a spray and pray mode of operation. Next to no one in the real world needs the firepower the S-12 can bring, as thrilling as it may be to shoot. I am not for banning the S-12 or having it needlessly reclassified as a DD by the batmen, but it is also not God's gift to combat shotgunnery for everyone.
Certainly you aren't this ignorant of military history? The tube fed shotgun is still a front line weapon in our military and has been since 1897. Turned on its ear, "If the mag fed shotgun is so inarguably great, why doesn't it enjoy more widespread appeal?"
This thread has pretty much answered that question. The mag-fed shotgun isn't everyones' dream gun for very valid reasons ranging from a lack of real world versatility to ergonomic deficiencies real or perceived.
You don't have to act like someone just shot your dog over it.
ReadyontheRight
Member
-Mags are expensive, hard to find and made out of plastic.
-Strange weight balance to shoot at flying objects (but just something to learn)
-It's easier to top-off a tube magazine.
-Hard to load single-shot (as required for some uses like trap), but it is do-able.
-If you use it at a Trap range, and you are in a hurry to leave, you won't be able to. Everyone wants to see it.
-Strange weight balance to shoot at flying objects (but just something to learn)
-It's easier to top-off a tube magazine.
-Hard to load single-shot (as required for some uses like trap), but it is do-able.
-If you use it at a Trap range, and you are in a hurry to leave, you won't be able to. Everyone wants to see it.
Gunfighter123
Member
lock the thread ??? Whatever , I'm gonna take my baseball and go home.
A BETTER idea --- send this to MythBusters !!!
Myth --- Saigas handle like "bulldozers" ---- maybe to some ,others find them to handle great.
Myth --- the Saigas are heavy , fact is they weigh the same as a Rem. 1100.
Myth --- mags can be lost or broken -- maybe , but I could win the lottery also.
Myth ---- no good for shooting Trap , Skeet etc ---- not the best choice but S-12s can be used.
Semi-Myth --- hard to go prone -- again , not with 5 rd. mags.
Myth -- "who in combat uses Buckshot" ---- come on , now who is "ranting" ---- WW1 , WW2 , Korea, etc. ---- the US was useing Buckshot in combat.
Now I don't remember if I made this offer in this thread or another Saiga thread ---------- Lets put our MONEY where our mouth is !!!!
I will bet that I can load a empty S-12 faster then most can load a tube fed SG. Both SGs empty to loading full.
I will bet I can hit more "clays" with the S-12 then I miss.
I will bet that I can knock down X number of Poppers as fast as a Rem , Win. etc.
I will bet that I can shoot prone with a 5 rd. Saiga just fine. And MAYBE a 10rd. Saiga ---- I don't do much prone shooting with a SG.
I have tried very hard to remain polite and other then 1 person , I have not "named names" etc.
Now --- go ahead and lock this thread , I don't care ---- if anyone has some cash they want to bet -- I am easy to get in touch with and we can post the video of the outcome of the bet.
I'm done "ranting" ---- have a nice day.
A BETTER idea --- send this to MythBusters !!!
Myth --- Saigas handle like "bulldozers" ---- maybe to some ,others find them to handle great.
Myth --- the Saigas are heavy , fact is they weigh the same as a Rem. 1100.
Myth --- mags can be lost or broken -- maybe , but I could win the lottery also.
Myth ---- no good for shooting Trap , Skeet etc ---- not the best choice but S-12s can be used.
Semi-Myth --- hard to go prone -- again , not with 5 rd. mags.
Myth -- "who in combat uses Buckshot" ---- come on , now who is "ranting" ---- WW1 , WW2 , Korea, etc. ---- the US was useing Buckshot in combat.
Now I don't remember if I made this offer in this thread or another Saiga thread ---------- Lets put our MONEY where our mouth is !!!!
I will bet that I can load a empty S-12 faster then most can load a tube fed SG. Both SGs empty to loading full.
I will bet I can hit more "clays" with the S-12 then I miss.
I will bet that I can knock down X number of Poppers as fast as a Rem , Win. etc.
I will bet that I can shoot prone with a 5 rd. Saiga just fine. And MAYBE a 10rd. Saiga ---- I don't do much prone shooting with a SG.
I have tried very hard to remain polite and other then 1 person , I have not "named names" etc.
Now --- go ahead and lock this thread , I don't care ---- if anyone has some cash they want to bet -- I am easy to get in touch with and we can post the video of the outcome of the bet.
I'm done "ranting" ---- have a nice day.
illEagle
Member
Well... Let ME say this about that.
I've owned plenty of pump/auto shotguns, even a bolt action once upon a time. They were fine guns every one. Then I found this ugly thing called a Saiga. It sure was a homely bugger. But i saw the images of what it was meant to be on the World Wide Web and I knew what I had to do.
I went to the shop to look at a brand new 1911. As it has been of late, the shop was overrun with eager customers. The 1911 counter was full so I browsed the shotgun rack while waiting my turn. As I turned towards the rack I thought I heard the singing of angels. Then, a section of the rack seamed to be just a little bit brighter than the surrounding store. What could it be? I stepped closer and there it was, then object of my affection, the shotgun I had been calling about for months. A Saiga S-12! In stock! Ready to go!
Needless to say, I took it home. I have since become a gunsmith of sorts. Before the Saiga the closest I ever came was a good field stripping and cleaning of various other "toys". And that my friends is the whole point of this thread.
My Saiga is a new hobby. It's the most fun I've had with a new "toy" in quite some time. Is it the best damn shotgun ever created? Maybe it is. Is it the best looking shot gun in the safe... That depends on who you ask, don't it? I must say that it looks a whole lot better now that I've squeezed the "sporter" out of it and returned it to its' "evil" tactical blackness.
Why not a Saiga-12?
It doesn't look like a real shotgun.
I don't want to be different.
It might scare the neighbors.
YMMV
I've owned plenty of pump/auto shotguns, even a bolt action once upon a time. They were fine guns every one. Then I found this ugly thing called a Saiga. It sure was a homely bugger. But i saw the images of what it was meant to be on the World Wide Web and I knew what I had to do.
I went to the shop to look at a brand new 1911. As it has been of late, the shop was overrun with eager customers. The 1911 counter was full so I browsed the shotgun rack while waiting my turn. As I turned towards the rack I thought I heard the singing of angels. Then, a section of the rack seamed to be just a little bit brighter than the surrounding store. What could it be? I stepped closer and there it was, then object of my affection, the shotgun I had been calling about for months. A Saiga S-12! In stock! Ready to go!
Needless to say, I took it home. I have since become a gunsmith of sorts. Before the Saiga the closest I ever came was a good field stripping and cleaning of various other "toys". And that my friends is the whole point of this thread.
My Saiga is a new hobby. It's the most fun I've had with a new "toy" in quite some time. Is it the best damn shotgun ever created? Maybe it is. Is it the best looking shot gun in the safe... That depends on who you ask, don't it? I must say that it looks a whole lot better now that I've squeezed the "sporter" out of it and returned it to its' "evil" tactical blackness.
Why not a Saiga-12?
It doesn't look like a real shotgun.
I don't want to be different.
It might scare the neighbors.
YMMV
Gunfighter123
Member
Are YOU saying we should have beanbag or rubber buckshot loaded and then "load up" to something more lethal??
I hope I don't NEED 20 rds. of buckshot as I don't own a drum mag.
I DO own more then one mag -- some are 5 rds. and some are 10 rds.
Do I practice mag changes ?? YES , with Rifles , Shotguns , and Handguns. I even practice "reloading" my revolvers. As to WHY --- to get better/faster. BTW --- you NEVER did post a link where someone changed from a lethal to a non-lethal shotshell while under fire.
Where to start with this one -- Maybe unlike YOU , I DO MISS when someone is shooting at me. Also , you can shoot to make/keep the BG under cover or shooting back at you. I KNOW FOR A FACT THIS WORKS or I would not be alive now.
Did you just quote me or read it first,
The Saiga S-12 , up untill the election , could be bought for under $400 , then add another $300 to convert it to pistol grip etc. etc. -- you would still be UNDER the price of a mag-fed shotgun that I bought in the 1980s. And with Ed Brown etc. etc. 1911 .45s at over $1000 , who is crying about a $1000 shotgun ---- and BTW , how much is it for a good O/U Trap gun ???
a spray and pray mode of operation ??? PLEASE !!!! Next to no one in the real world needs the firepower the S-12 can bring --- I could say the same thing about your beloved pumpgun except it would sound lame !! Maybe we all better go back to double barrels ?? Wait --- no one in the Real World would need Two Shots unless they planned on missing alot !!!!!
Nice try ---- did YOU read what you quoted me ??? I SAID "IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ??????? " ----- and I even typed FIREARM in capital letters.
Care to ansewer the question on why ??? And NO -- Certainly you aren't this ignorant of military history? I know pump shotguns have been in use from WW1 -- thats why I said FIREARMS and not SHOTGUNS.
Boats ---- you have NO IDEA how I would act if someone shot my dog.
Funny no one has got in touch to take my bet --- money up Boys.
No, but the ability to shift from buck to slugs might be handy and the skill is the same.
Why do you need a link? This skill is instructed at most combat shotgun classes conducted by well regarded trainers. Perhaps they should begin shooting at their students.
Do tell. Then maybe you can instruct us on suppressive fire's role in home defense.
You said the Franchi and USAS were/are market failures due to how expensive they are/were. My point was that the converted Saiga just reached that same ridiculous price and lack of value threshold.
Blah, blah, blah. Your reductionism wasn't the point. You don't have a drum mag, so you have no realistic capacity edge over most pump guns, merely a reloading advantage. Again, most people aren't going to be singlehandedly fighting gang sets or something that requires your dubious advantage.
Since no one was arguing the military greatness of lever operated rifles, you'll need to expound on why you insist on an apples/oranges comparison in a shotgun thread. The more relevant inquiry is why the mag fed shotgun doesn't retire the tube fed shotgun to obsolescence. The answer would be that unlike the detachable mag rifle, which brings a considerable capacity edge, reloading advantage, and the ability to load between 20-40 spitzer rounds, as opposed to six or fewer rounded nose bullets, the mag fed shotgun only brings a more convenient reload at the cost of operational flexibility.
I'm convinced that hysterics would be part of the response.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Pretty much.
The OP asked for circumstances in which a tube-mag shotgun might work better, and I think that we've pretty much covered all that. I'm not seeing any new ideas come out on that topic in the last couple o' dozen posts.
We've also had over 600 threads in this forum addressing some aspect of the Saiga, with two notable threads in the last two months:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=418851
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=417168
I don't think that any new information is going to come out on this topic if only we just keep hammering at it. There are those that see the differences in employment between a detachable box-fed shotgun and a tube-fed shotgun to be minimal, and there are those who see them as significant.
Y'all just need to do what makes you the most effective in your intended usage. Just make sure to run the snot outta whatever you choose, and get good at usin' it.
BTW the fact that some people can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that there are inherient advantages or disadvantages to each is just staggering. There are trade offs with each and depending on the task one may be more well suited than the other.
I have given my two cents more than once on what I see as advantages of each. I will close by pointing out that an otherwise stock saiga bumps you into open class at three gun. Those that argue toping off does away with the advatage of the speed of a box mag reload please explain why an otherwise stock gun moves you to open if there is not a clear advatage in that area.
BTW for HD I dont think one offers a huge advantage over the other since one is unlikely to need 8+ shots. One can find a a good pump for much less money and it is ready out of the box. I have both and like both. I keep a S12 by my bed. Anyone that thinks eather wont serve adequately is sadly mistaken. I never thought I would have gone away from a 870 18.5" barrel but the saiga 12 won me over. Plus it is more fun to shoot. Training and shooting will do more for you than what gun you have every time.
It is interesting that the Saiga seems to get some peoples blood pumping.
Now I think there is a interesting discussion to be had for things like three gun, zombies, red dawn, etc.
Topping off doesn't negate the advantage, it just makes it less substantial than the proponents argue it is. Three gun is a game. Games need rules to pit like equipped competitors against one another to see who the better shooter is. A three gun course of fire is fantasy play acting with a purpose.
But like you alluded to, in the real world, reloading after six, eight, ten or even twenty 12 gauge shots is something that will most likely be something explained to the cops or a DA.
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