Win Model 12 and Model 1897

Prices are all over the board depending on what you are looking to use it for. I would prefer one from the late 50s, but they are all good to go. Seems like early model 12 were chambered in 2 9/16s which is a little shorter than 2 3/4s. Thay didn't have damascus barrells or anything so pressure wise should be able to handle most modern loads. BTW if you see one for sale anywhere by rpn1984 run away its a scam.

2 9/16" was the standard then, and was changed more or less ca 1925.

Damascus was a method of wrapping iron and steel strips round a mandrel and then welding them. While strong enough for low pressure BP loads when new, they do not age well and oft blow up with modern ammo.

These days, ammo is oft loaded up to 13K PSI. A typical BP load is more like 8K.

BTW, the search feature is your friend.

For the OP, both the 12 and 97 are classics. As will all shotguns made before WWII, a checkout by a decent smith is mandated by common sense and sanity.

The 12 does have one of the smoothest shucks ever. The 97 has parts sticking out of it that kinda look medieval during the stroke, but it also has a certain elan.

Examples of either may be tired and require the ministrations of a specialist smith.

HTH....

Without some experience with these guns I would recommend finding the latest Model 12 that you can find in 12 gauge.

The 97s were last made in the mid 1950s. Many of the 97s are (tired out) not in the best mechanical shape. They usually are not worth fixing, if you can find a smith that knows what he is doing.

The Model 12 were last made in the 1970s. The odds are better that you can find one in good shape.

The Model 12 were last made in the 1970s. The odds are better that you can find one in good shape.

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AFAIK these were Japanese-made guns on the Model 12 Pattern, sold by Browning.

The last real Model 12s, made in the old Winchester factory, are "pre-64" guns, like other classic Winchesters.

The "Y" series, a Y as a first letter of the serial number were made by Winchester beginning in about 1972 through the rest of the 1970s. They were either field or trap guns with ribs and high grade wood. They are very good guns.

dak0ta,

What do you want to use the gun for? Trap? Skeet? Hunting? If hunting, what do you plan to hunt? etc.

lpl

Post-1928 or 1929, I believe.

Otherwise, look for features. A lot of those old guns have no ribs. Some have pretty funky stocks on them. Some are gorgeous across the board. Some are meant for Trap. You decide what you want.

Interchangable choke tubes were invented after the Model 12 was discontinued in 1964.

Neither the Model 97 or Model 12 have interchangable barrels either.
They are what they are when you get them.

rc

Do they have interchangeable chokes?

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ROTFLMAO

No. Not original equipment, anyway.

Most everything you expect from a modern shotgun was developed pretty recently. If you're even asking the question, you'll probably be unpleasantly surprised with what you find.

IMHO a Model 12 is a smooth, neat piece for old men to fondle in their gun rooms. They're some of the nicest pump guns ever made, with machining that's unseen in others. Maybe the nicest. Depends what you think of Ithaca's upland guns. But they won't do a damn thing you can't do with your 870 Express -- which is why Remington blew Winchester's objectively nicer gun out of the marketplace decades ago.

They're still pump guns, one way or another. Inherently blunt instruments, but made with fine workmanship.

If you are looking for a gun for all-around clays range use, get something else with your money. Neither one is a good buy. They're both toys for collectors who have to have something in their safes. And when more Boomers retire and the old gun collectors who have been hoarding these things for years die off, I'm figuring the supply of mass-produced "collectibles" like these will be going up...

A nice Model 12 costs as much as a nice used gun that's actually appropriate for your intended purpose. Maybe even a nice NEW gun like a Urika.

I've been in a mode lately where I'm unloading guns I bought because I thought I WANTED them...

I love my model 12-20 Gauge. It is one of my favorite firearms.

That being said, the stock design makes them kick like no other. The 20 kicks like a 12, and the 12 kicks like... well... I wouldn't want one in 12 G, I don't think. Then again, they didn't make 'sissy' pads back then.

Most of the model 12's have tight full chokes, so it will not make a good trap gun. Some model 12's were sold in 2 bbl sets in different chokes with matching SN's on both bbl's and the receiver, but they are pretty rare. By the way... make sure those SN's match on any prospective model 12. I've seen a lot of them that do not match, and all collector's value is blown.

Great guns... get one!

Same deal as the Model 12 & 97.

Unless you buy a brand new one being made today, they didn't have choke tubes back then in the Model 37's heyday.

If you want choke tubes or inexpensive interchangable barrels, you need to look at more modern designs like your 870 Rem.

rc

A lot of people would argue the Model 12 was the best pump shotgun ever made. One things for sure. They simply dominated the clay target games of Trap & Skeet for the most part until they stopped making them in 1964. You didn't hardly ever see anyone shooting Itheca 37's as they were lighter in weight, kicked harder, and were more of a hunting gun.
Many Model 12's shot more ammo in a year then a typical Model 37 would shoot in a lifetime.

As for John Browning?
Remington picked up the Browning patents on his bottom ejection shotgun, and another designer named John Pederson changed quite a few things.
Pederson was infamous for using two parts anywhere Browning would have used one to do the same thing!

Remington offered it as the model 10a & 17 for a number of years starting in 1907.
Ithaca later added some further changes and first sold them starting in 1937 after the Remington/Pederson patents had expired.

So, the Model 12 Winchester designed by T. C. Johnson was actually a later design based on Brownings 1893/1897 designs.

John Browning had died 11 years earlier in 1926, and really didn't have much to do with the Model 37 except the basic design patents he had sold to Remington.

rc

There has never been a pump shotgun that's a good choice for all-around modern clay shooting. Yes, some guys used to shoot skeet with pump guns, but nobody has done that seriously for a generation. Sporting clays? Not at all.

If you're going to spend real money, get a gun that's appropriate for your purpose unless you have more money than you know what to do with anyway.

Neither a Model 12 nor an 1897 is a "good buy" for any modern application. Want to hunt waterfowl? Get a Mossberg with a rust-proof camo coating and modern chokes for a lot less. Want to shoot clays? Get a nice 391 for the same price. Upland birds? Yeah, 20 Gauge Model 12 or 37 pumps are favored by some, but so are O/U, SxS, and semiauto guns.

If all you want is a gun so you can admire the wonderful machine work, then you don't need screw-in chokes or a rib. But have you ever tried to shoot Skeet with a fixed Modified?

Pump guns are great for throwing in a boat, under the bed, or in a cop car. They're even good for Trap singles (where the Model 12 was popular in grandpa's day). That's why the 870, variants of the 500 and the Nova are the only ones that sell in any significant quantity. The others weren't worth the cost, for what they do.

Here's a modern Model 12 in 28 ga a grade 5, the wood on this is fantastic!!

..."Interchangable choke tubes were invented after the Model 12 was discontinued in 1964."...

from Fjestad blue book:

MODEL 12 SLIDE ACTION
- 12 (introduced 1914), 16 (introduced 1914), 20 (initial ga., mfg. 1912, 2 1/2 in. chamber mfg. until 1927), or 28 (introduced 1937) ga., 25 (20 ga. only, mfg. 1912-14), 26, 28, 30, or 32 in. standard, nickel, or stainless steel (scarce) barrel with or without rib (matted, solid, or VR), 2 9/16 (early 16 or 20 ga., until 1927, at ser. no. 464,565), 2 3/4 (became standard 1927) or 3 in. chamber, 6 shot, blue metal, various chokes, hammerless, plain pistol grip or straight walnut stock and forearm, marked Model 1912 from 1912-1919, approx. ser. no. 172,000. Mfg. 1912-1976.

Grading.... 100% ..98% ..95% ..90% ..80% ..70% ..60%
12 ga. ......$625 .$450 ..$350 .$325 .$250 .$200 ..$175
Subtract 50% if with factory Cutts compensator.
The following add-ons DO NOT apply to 28 ga. values.
Add 40%-50% for Win. solid rib.
Add 50%-60% for Win. milled VR.
Add 60% for each extra barrel(s).
Add 40%-50% for Win. special VR (offset barrel proofmark).
Source(s):
27th Edition Blue Book of Gun Values

these were external chokes, as opposed to modern in bbl chokes. they threaded onto slotted cutts comp tube. with them being such a detriment to collectors, i'd think them a good value for a shooter.

gunnie

I love my model 12's. my HD gun may not be "tacticool" but you better believe it will get the job done. As for my trap gun, someone said that the tight full chokes on M-12's were no good for trap. After a couple hundred thousand shells through mine, I couldn't disagree more.
That said, on to the 97: They are fine guns but I still have the scars on the back of my right hand from a 97's bolt when I choked up too much on the stock of a riot gun during a firefight in 'Nam. Other than that, there are very few pumpguns that are as smooth as either the 12 or the 97.

I have a model 12, 12 gauge with the Cutts compensator. It was manufactured ca. 1946-47. I shoot standard 2-3/4" target loads through it 99% of the time. I do enjoy shooting it and have tons of fun busting a few clays once in awhile. I don't shoot competitively, just for fun. I've never used it for sporting clays and probably wouldn't. I have a Winchester 1400 and a Browning Gold that work much better for that.

All 12ga model 12s had 2 3/4in chambers from the factory.. except for the heavy duck model that has a factory 3in chamber...16 and 20ga model 12s had short chambers until 1927/28....