Winchester Model 12

[TNT]

I ordered a chamber guage in 12ga from Brownells and just got done checking the two Winchester Model 12 shotguns that I bought last week and both have the short 2.5" chambers. How worried should I be about shooting 2.75" shells out of the short chambers? I am going to keep the one made in 1913 the way it is but I am considering either getting the chamber bored out or buying a different barrel for the one made in 1934. I see barrels on Ebay all the time and I am leaning towards that route. I would like to get the old shotty out for deer hunting this fall.

 

[Fred Fuller]

TNT,

Good on ya for checking those chambers. Smart first move, now please keep it up.

How worried should you be about shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers? Well, that depends on how many guardian angels are in your employ. Me, I wouldn't do it AT ALL, but then I don't walk around lopsided from all the cherubim riding on my shoulder either. You might just feel lucky, and you might just get away with it.

Or you might not, and your handle might turn out to be VERY appropriate, if you get my drift.

See the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89464 for more...

lpl/nc

(Dave, where are ya, dude. I'm needin' some help here...)

 

[pauli]

How worried should I be about shooting 2.75" shells out of the short chambers?

you shouldn't be worried at all, cause you're not gonna do it.

 

[TrapperReady]

It's not worth risking shooting the longer shells in the short chamber. As Dave often opines... "Shotguns and handgrenades have similar working pressures".

I've seen some data indicating that the pressures might not jump as high as expected... but there were some fairly stringent constraints upon translating that data to the real world. Better safe than sorry... especially when sorry could mean dead, blind or deaf.

When I got a short-chambered Browning A5 16ga last year, I solved the problem simply by ordering some 2 1/2" ammo from Westley-Richards. There are enough old (mostly English) double guns out there that require short shells, that there are a number of sources for the ammo. Since I won't shoot that gun a lot, a couple of cases should last me quite a while.

If I was planning on using one of your Model 12s a lot, I'd likely get the chamber reamed.

 

[Clemson]

I agree with Trapper Ready. 2 1/2 inch shells are available for those guns. Buy a case, reload the shells and keep the guns going for quite a while.

Clemson

 

[TNT]

I just got the book "The Winchester Model Twelve" by George Madis. This is what it says about the chambers:


"At first only twenty guage guns were offered, although development work had been done and tooling was ready for the sixteen and twelve guage. Early twenty guage guns were chambered for two and one-half inch shells. After 1925, two and three-quarter inch chambers were standard.

Sixteen and twelve guage guns were added in the catalogs and other lists by 1914. Early sixteen guage guns had two and nine-sixteenths inch chambers; in 1927 and thereafter two and three-quarters inch chambers were standard.

Winchester and most gunsmiths did a great business in rechambering the earlier sixteen and twenty guage guns to the new longer lengths.

Twelve guage guns were chambered for two and three-quarters inch shells as standard."

According to the book all Model 12 shotguns in 12 guage were chambered for the 2.75" length. I also rechecked the serial numbers and according to the book the one Model 12 was made in 1914 when the first 12 guages were introduced with a total of 47,347 model 12's produced that year. The other one was made in 1935 with a total of 12,983 shotguns produced.

 

[Red Label]

I agree with your last post. I love my M12s and I have one 16ga. that has the short chamber but my 12 ga is 2 3/4. I would recheck those chambers again to be safe because you never know what may have escaped from the factory but my information also says that no M12 12ga were made with the short chamber. I don't know exactly how a chamber guage works so you might want to get someone else to take a look at this too. Thankfully my barrel is marked 2 3/4. Made in 1937. If for some reason they are short chambered however do not, DO NOT SHOOT 2 3/4 shells through it!

 

[TNT]

It's a Walker guage and it's just a steel bar that has grooves cut into it. When you put it into the chamber it tells you the chamber length depending on which groove it stops at. The guage says both chambers are shorter than 2.75" but the book says all 12ga guns have the 2.75" chambers.:banghead:

Red Label
I don't know exactly how a chamber guage works so you might want to get someone else to take a look at this too.

 

[rick_reno]

Do you have or can you find/borrow another 12 ga. shotgun to try your chamber guage in? You need to make sure you're using and reading the guage correctly.

 

[Clemson]

The model 12 is unique in its configuration. It has a "headspace ring" that stays in the receiver, and the shell actually seats on that ring. I would guess that you have to add the depth of that ring to the barrel measurement to come up with the total chamber length. I would be inclined to believe the Madis book.

Clemson

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Notice that 2-3/4 is with the crimp open

Just possibly there is some confusion here between shell length/chamber length/and fired shell with the crimp open length.

Notice that strictly speaking the unfired shotgun shell might be considered the same length with an over shot wad or roll crimp - more commonly seen today in slug loads - and with a folded crimp.

After firing length can be rather different.

Notice also that just as a chamber for a metallic cartridge has a throat in whatever form from short to freebore so too shotgun chambers include clearance for the unfolding crimp. IT MATTERS!

I rather suspect the Model 12 chambers are correct for the 2-3/4 unfolded length cartridge and also measure the chamber correctly for the folded length.

A little more reading/research might explain this more.

 

[TNT]

rick_reno
Yes I did try it in other 12 ga shotguns and everything measured correctly.

Clemson, I believe you are correct. I have also done more searching on the net and everything that I have read says the same as the Madis book. All 12 guage Model 12's were chambered for the 2.75" shell length.