News from gun free Australia....

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In regard to your comment above though, wouldn't that shotgun have to be kept in a locked cabinet or safe with the ammo in a seperate container & therefore not 'readilly accessible' in an emergency?

This is correct. Firearms are supposed to secured when not in use and kept separate from the ammunition. I have children in my home and so I would store my guns under lock and key anyway but I know of other shooters who simply leave their safe open at night and sleep with their pistol/shotgun in their room. In the event of a break-in, they have the weapon available at an instant and intend to just tell the police that they heard noises and grabbed the gun from the safe. Not ideal but certainly not leaving us defenceless as some people imagine.
 
"Australia is NOT gun free, I don't know how many of this type of thread I've seen over recent years, but that is a very inaccurate statement."

It's called sarcasm. Try it some time. But seriously, there's no such thing as a gun free country, thus the sarcasm. The major point being, the more restrictions the worse off the law abiding population tends to be (1) and the added restrictions down under and other countries has not reduced crime rates as a rule, while (with some debate granted) those areas of the US with stricter gun laws suffer higher gun crime and crime then those areas that are less restrictive. I posted the article as sarcasm to point out Australia is far from gun free (with the BGs free to get them and use them) with the general population no better off for the restrictions. Capiche? :scrutiny:

(1)
"Appearing in the current issue of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pages 649-694), the Kates/Mauser report entitled "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence" is a detailed look at gun ownership and how it does not relate to the incidence of murder and violence. They conclude that

"nations with very stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those which allow guns."

The Abstract:

Abstract

The world abounds in instruments with which people can kill each other. Is the widespread availability of one of these instruments, firearms, a crucial determinant of the incidence of murder? Or do patterns of murder and/or violent crime reflect basic socio-economic and/or cultural factors to which the mere availability of one particular form of weaponry is irrelevant?

This article examines a broad range of international data that bear on two distinct but interrelated questions: first, whether widespread firearm access is an important contributing factor in murder and/or suicide, and second, whether the introduction of laws that restrict general access to firearms has been successful in reducing violent crime, homicide or suicide. Our conclusion from the available data is that suicide, murder and violent crime rates are determined by basic social, economic and/or cultural factors with the availability of any particular one of the world’s myriad deadly instrument being irrelevant.

Full paper downloaded here:

http://law.bepress.com/expresso/eps/1413/
 
Notice that the article refers to gun violence being out of control because there was a whopping three shootings in the space of a week. That's not three deaths or even three woundings, but just three instances of firearms being discharged in an urban setting. For those of you who aren't aware, Sydney is Australia's largest city. When I lived in Baltimore (a city much smaller than Sydney), there were dozens of shootings every single day and it wasn't unusual for there to be multiple deaths. Similar conditions exist in most large American cities. This article simply highlights the fact that Australians have very low levels of firearm related violence compared to America.
 
This article simply highlights the fact that Australians have very low levels of firearm related violence compared to America.

It should be noted that violence was even lower when firearms were readily available in Australia.

In fact Australians in Tasmania could easily purchase full auto firearms well after Americans had severe restrictions.
There was several years there when at least a portion of Australia had more firearm freedoms than anywhere in the United States.

Yet they had lower rates of crime, including firearm related crimes even then.

Within a span of a single generation Australia went from having extreme firearm freedoms, to being severely restricted.
Most of the restrictions started in the late 80s, into the 90s, culminating in 1996 with the mandated buybacks of firearms. (Though it didn't stop there, with even more things in the 2000's.)
Within a mere 10 years things were not even recognizable.
 
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It should be noted that violence was even lower when firearms were readily available in Australia

Got any evidence for that claim? Not saying you're wrong because I can't think of any civilised society that isn't gradually getting more violent over the years but I think you'll struggle to link increasing violence with the level of accessibility of firearms. How do you isolate the effect of firearms from other contributing factors such as drug use, family breakdown, lack of social cohesion, poverty, decline of religion, increased urbanisation, influence of mass media etc.

There was several years there were some portions of Australia had more firearm freedoms than anywhere in the United States.
This is true although this was also the period where Australia suffered it's worst mass killings. There has not been a single spree killing with a semi-automatic rifle since they were outlawed thirteen years ago. I absolutely oppose the ban but it is hard to argue that that the new law hasn't been effective and achieved what it was intended to.
 
157 illegal shooting (not murders, but shooting) events per year for a major city? <40 per year in neighborhoods of (I assume) significant size? That's not very many when you think about it.
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Australia only has a total population of about 22 million as opposed to the U.S. which has a population of about 304 million. If you want to compare apples to oranges then take whatever number of crimes in Australia and multiply them by a factor of 14. If you had 2200 shootings in an American city in a year that'd be pretty significant...
... as long as we're comparing apples to oranges.
 
Australia only has a total population of about 22 million as opposed to the U.S. which has a population of about 304 million. If you want to compare apples to oranges then take whatever number of crimes in Australia and multiply them by a factor of 14. If you had 2200 shootings in an American city in a year that'd be pretty significant...

Not quite sure what you're saying here. Australia has averaged just 56 firearm homicides per year since the introduction of the 1996 gun laws. If we multiply this number by 14 in order to get a numerical comparison to America, we get just 784 gun murders. In the year 2005, the US recorded 15614 gun homicides or to put it another way, Americans were nearly 20 times more likely to be murdered with a firearm than an Australian. Like I said before, I don't think the presence/absence of guns is entirely to blame for this but I think it is clear that more guns does not equal less deaths or vice versa.
 
You are correct. The presence or absence of guns in society has no causal effect on the rate of crime. Guns neither cause nor prevent crime.

If this is correct, how can you say that these laws have been effective?

That there have been no mass killings since this law means little of the overall homicide rate is climbing anyway. All it means is that you haven't been forced to SEE your homicide all in one place in a while. What will you say when another mass killing DOES occur? (AND IT WILL.)
 
That there have been no mass killings since this law means little of the overall homicide rate is climbing anyway

But that is the point, the overall homicide rate is not climbing and the gun homicide rate is half of what it was prior to the introduction of the laws. The laws specifically targeted semi-automatic military style weapons because these are the type of firearm most commonly used to carry out mass shootings. We had 124 people killed in multiple shootings in the ten years leading up to the laws and not one in the thirteen years since. People can still kill each other with handguns, single shot rifles and shotguns in Australia because these have not been outlawed but killings with semi-automatic centerfire weapons are unheard of since the laws. The real danger is that the success of the laws will encourage further restrictions on other classes of firearms.

What will you say when another mass killing DOES occur? (AND IT WILL.)
People have been saying that for the last thirteen years. Sometimes it seems that some of us can't wait for the next killing just so that they can gloat over the dead and scream "SEE, SEE I told you it wouldn't work!" :neener:It's kind of like arguing that we should just scrap the police because crime still occurs even with a police force. If another mass shooting does occur, and I agree with you that it probablly will, then I don't think it will change anything. Most people here will still consider it a good thing that psycopaths, depressives and your run-of-the-mill retard hasn't been able to just walk in to a gun shop and pick up an AR15 with no questions asked like they could before the 1996 ban. Most people here consider the dramatically reduced number of gun homicides to be a good thing.
 
Most people here will still consider it a good thing that psycopaths, depressives and your run-of-the-mill retard hasn't been able to just walk in to a gun shop and pick up an AR15 with no questions asked like they could before the 1996 ban.

They'll just pick up a machete instead. http://www.smh.com.au/national/three-charged-after-machete-rampage-at-school-20090302-8mea.html It turns out that this one didn't involve depressed crazies, but the oh-so-common boy/girl lover's quarrel.

Bear in mind that the biggest mass murder events in recent American history involved fertilizer and airplanes.
 
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...I can't think of any civilised society that isn't gradually getting more violent over the years...
A quick google search will show the crime rate in the overall US has been falling since the 1980's. Of course same may argue the US is not a civilised society...
 

So three kids walk into a school with a machete and injure one person and you hold that up as an example of how strict gun laws don't work? I think most people will draw the opposite conclusion. I suspect the carnage would have been very different if those kids were armed with TEC9s and Hi-Point carbines like ala Harris and Klebold. Can you show me any examples of where 35 people have been killed by a single whack-job with a machette?

Again, my personal opinion is that access to firearms plays a very minor role in determining any given society's gun homicide rate. Drug use, social and familiy disintergration etc play a far greater role in my humble opinion. I believe that if a man is determined to kill another man, he will do it with a knife, baseball bat, poison, motorvehicle or whatever else he can get his hands on but the preference in this day and age is undeniably firearms. I just get annoyed when people try to draw simplistic arguments such as more guns equals less shootings without looking at far more significant cultural and societal factors. A country full of criminal psycopaths and guns is going to be far more bloody than a country full of law abiding decent citizens and guns. Guns don't cause crime anymore than they cure it. Just my 2 cents.
 
No, my point was that it is the intent of the person, not the means, that makes the difference. You seem to be making the same argument in your second paragraph, so maybe we're on the same side of the fence?

If someone wants to kill people, or lots of people, they will find a way. If no gun is around, they'll grab a knife or machete (which were pretty effective in slaughtering tens of thousands of people in the Tutsi/Hutu fights). If they want to do massive damage to a lot of people (like McVeigh did), they'll build a bomb. If Martin Bryant didn't have firearms, he might have built a large bomb from ordinary materials. Perhaps he could've killed more. Sure, it's conjecture, but he was clearly hellbent on killing.

I agree in full that the societal ills are at the root cause, but I don't buy the argument that gun control reduces the number of incidents. Again, the Tutsi/Hutu conflict proved that knives, machetes, and good ol' rocks and stones can nearly wipe out an entire ethnic population.
 
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Got any evidence for that claim? Not saying you're wrong because I can't think of any civilised society that isn't gradually getting more violent over the years but I think you'll struggle to link increasing violence with the level of accessibility of firearms.

The evidence is freely available in unbiased statistics that the crime rates were low and remained relatively low overall regardless of firearm accessibility in Australia. The same trend and slight rises and falls based on many other things remained.

I was not making the argument that decreased firearm accessibility was responsible for increased violence, only that it had no real effect on the overall crime of Australia. Others have made that argument.
What I observe is relatively the same trends before the restrictions and after the restrictions continued. Australia had even lower crime before the major restrictions, but also not a major increase as a result of the restrictions.
Great levels of freedom were lost, but it made little difference in the overall criminal activity.

The primary difference would not be the number of crimes, but rather who is sure to prevail in violent crime now. Equality has been lost for women, the elderly, and others unable to physically stand up to the strong young men responsible for most crime. I understand groups of biker gangs were responsible for a lot of crime in Australia. I am sure they benefit greatly with the disarmament of everyone else. Even if they have slightly fewer arms themselves, they would benefit greatly from everyone being restricted to other options.
So the overall crime numbers are not much different either way, just the level of legal physical control over one's own destiny.

Even you yourself admit criminal actions are now the best way to provide for defense at home. Violating the legal storage requirements, and committing a crime, and then lying about it if ever necessary to use in self defense. (Which may sound good in theory, but the simple fact someone is believed to have taken all the time to unlock a gun and ammo from separate locations gives the impression the danger was not as immediate as it may have been in reality.)



This is true although this was also the period where Australia suffered it's worst mass killings. There has not been a single spree killing with a semi-automatic rifle since they were outlawed thirteen years ago. I absolutely oppose the ban but it is hard to argue that that the new law hasn't been effective and achieved what it was intended to.

It was illegal for anyone to have a firearm at the locations of the killings. That means anyone willing to break the law and bring a firearm was sure to be the only armed person present. That includes spree killers.

It is access to firearms combined with laws against them being in specific public locations that generally combine to allow low IQ nutjobs to bring firearms they purchased to places nobody else can stop them and open fire. Making people ripe targets for individuals like the one in the Port Arthur massacre. Who incidentally was inspired by the non stop press coverage for weeks of the Dunblane incident used to ban handguns in the UK. Too dumb to think for himself, he was inspired to copy what the media was parading. So certainly individuals such as that can be reduced.

(Yet the slightly more 'intelligent' nuts, will just find other means. As has been seen many times over. Our most deadly attacks have not been done by someone with a firearm. In fact I would rather face a nut with a gun anytime than simply explode before I know there is even a nutcase present. Arguably the avenue of firearms can help reduce the effectiveness of such people, and give armed people a chance to fight back. Without the avenue of firearms they are more prone seek other methods, many of which are even harder to defend against.)


Of course none of that has anything to do with the original intent of the 2nd in the USA. Which was specifically for protection and allowing both offensive and defensive use against tyrants and oppressors of liberty, and those who supported them, like the Commonwealth. Allowing all people of the United States to be ready for militia action, such as a widespread insurgency (against the British or any other invader, or even the US government itself if it became tyrannical).
One of the benefits from breaking away from the British Empire through force I suppose. Certainly not a history shared with Australia.
 
Did anyone else feel a chill when reading this?

Opposition police spokesman Mike Gallacher said NSW was awash with handguns, which were being imported from overseas and then traded on Sydney streets.

"Criminals are getting their hands on illegally imported firearms," he said last night.

This story is a setup to support the "Tele's" political point of view, much the way that partisan newspapers do here. This is a mind control piece.

I'd bet there's a follow up article claiming that "90%" of those illegally imported firearms come from U.S. gun manufacturers.

What does "Opposition police spokesman" mean, anyway?
 
What does "Opposition police spokesman" mean, anyway?

He would belong to the political party not currently in power in NSW. The state government will have a 'Police Spokesman', while the opposition party will also have someone with the same portfolio, just no authority, who's main role in life is to make contrary comments about things his/her counterpart makes.
 
To keep it perspective yet again... The Country of Australia is almost equal to the population of the state of New York.
 
And yet New York had 889 gun homicides in 2005 compared to just 124 in Australia.
I think population density might be a factor here. The state of New York has a population density of something like 400 people per square mile.
 
Australia is actually one of the most urbanised countries in the world. Over 90% of the population live in just a handful of large cities with the majority of the outback sparsely populated. The population density of cities like Sydney and Melbourne are very similar to New York.
 
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