Short-shucking experiments.

Status
Not open for further replies.

ArmedBear

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
23,171
This should be relevant to both sporting and defensive shotguns.

With nasty weather on the way, I dug out my 870, which hadn't been fired in a couple of years, to go try and shoot some ducks. Every time I shot it, I stovepiped it! This had never happened to me before, and this gun has had enough rounds through it to have the finish almost all worn off wherever my hands are when I'm shooting it -- and I bought it new.

Some experimenting showed what was happening. There was nothing wrong with the gun. I just hadn't shot 3" shells through it much. Bear in mind: I had not shot an 870, or any pump gun at all, in a good two years. Yet, my muscle memory was STILL programmed to pump it exactly far enough to eject a 2 3/4" round and chamber another one. Hence, I jammed it when I shot 3" shells.

At home, I loaded it with spent 3" hulls, and practiced pulling the trigger and shucking it. I found that, if I slammed the foreend ALL the way back, then all the way forward, it would work every time, and I could do it fairly quickly. After what I thought was enough practice to reprogram my muscle memory, I went hunting. Sure enough, I didn't have a single FTE problem.

So... Since many people have brought up the problem of short-shucking under stress, and I experienced it myself, I have a few thoughts and suggestions.

1. Remember that, under even mild stress, "muscle memory" takes over. Practice EXACTLY what you will need to do under stress, when you're not under stress. Do it often enough to program yourself -- because whether you want to or not, you WILL program your muscles when you do something repeatedly. So do it consciously.

2. ESPECIALLY if you use 3" buckshot for HD, practice firing multiple times rapidly with 3" rounds, not 2 3/4" rounds. Note that spent 3" hulls are a good deal longer than loaded ones. Save some for dry-fire practice; snap caps and loaded hulls will not work for this purpose.

3. Practice shucking ALL the way back, not just far enough to throw out 2 3/4" hulls. Even if you use 2 3/4" hulls, you won't short-shuck if your muscles are programmed to open the action all the way to the stop. Short-shucking generally can occur when you only open the action far enough to eject a round, not when you open it all the way.

Anyone else have ideas, disagreements, additions? Anything would be appreciated. This is something that can help any of us who use a pump gun for anything.:)
 
Last edited:
I guess some people short shuck but I can't see it. I always pump all the way back regardless of shell length. I have never seen anyone else short shuck but it must happen. You gave the best answer, practice pumping all the way back.
 
One reason you might get used to shucking just far enough to eject a 2 3/4" shell is shooting really fast, e.g. skeet, trap or clays doubles with a pump, dove shooting, etc. It can be a lot faster to do a quick, shorter stroke without hitting the end of travel. But, as I wrote, it can develop muscle memory that causes short-shucking.:)
 
Good subject and also good advice Bear.

I also find that a hamfisted technique of grabbing the forearm like a baseball bat does not fair nearly as well for me and causes more short cycles. I learned that using my thumb and two fingers to cycle the gun functions a lot better and causes me to run the bolt all the way back more naturally. My ring finger and pinky are folded below the forearm kind of help supporting the weight. That doesn't mean I don't need to hold it securely. I just need to be firm and use proper form for my long arms. It took some time shooting for it to become natural to me as you say.

Works for me, but it may not for others.
 
Good thread,AB and company.

I've had one short shuck in all these years. IIRC, it was on a trap double.

I do slam the forearm all the way, so that helps.

Rack it like you mean it....
 
Interesting results. I rarely (I want to say never, but I am not sure that is true) shoot three-inch shells, so I cannot say I would not do the same thing. I believe I always bring the forearm back as far as it goes; at least, it seems I do. But the first time I heard the reason for a release trigger, I had problems believing a flinch would stop one from pulling the trigger while allowing you to believe you did so. Then I saw it happen. Talk about a wake-up call. The body can do some strange things.

I have not yet short-shucked an 870, but I expect it will happen some time in the future. Of course, I might also need a release trigger.
 
That sounds like the best advice I got when first learning guns, someone telling me to be smooth and absolutely firm and decisive, don't do anything half-way. Don't need to be violent, just be very deliberate.
 
That sounds like the best advice I got when first learning guns, someone telling me to be smooth and absolutely firm and decisive, don't do anything half-way. Don't need to be violent, just be very deliberate.

Good advice! As with anything mechanical, deliberate and mechanical movements mean reliabilty and predictability.
 
Good advice that could also apply to operating a bolt action rifle.Or for that matter my old H&R Gamester 12 ga bolt action shotgun.


ArmedBear what does TANSTAAFL mean,unless you would have to kill me if you told me.:)
 
Last edited:
I worked for MG Taylor, once upon a time -- but I didn't know they used the acronym.:)
 
Every time I shot it....................the finish almost all worn off wherever my hands are......................I stovepiped it........................many people have brought up the problem of short-shucking under stress.............rack it like you mean it!

Not to be juvenile but you make statements like these anywhere else except a gun board and people are going to make some interesting assumptions! ;)
 
^ to be fair, the same thing could be said about an old, well-used reliable car, motorcycle, or anything else when you remove certain words. It all depends on context, as I have discovered WAY to many times in conversations.
 
my .02 cents. (maybe worthless).
I have used a winchester model 25, an old 870 2 3/4 only, then a 3 1/2 BPS ,and finnally bought and like an 870 express magnum 3 1/2". I have always hunted ducks and some geese. Have that being said...... CLEANING these guns are the most important thing you can do. The second is to practice not short shucking. I think any good CLEAN pump will cure your problem ,IMO. but what does my 50 year old as$ know?
 
Time to break out the video camera

To the best of my memory, I've never short-shucked a trap load. However, last year I finally came to the realization that I've been short-shucking my 870 with heavy loads (slugs & turkey) for years (like 20 years). For me, it's always come up with an empty chamber; no stovepipes or failures to eject, just empty chambers.

I first noticed it many years ago during deer season; pulling the trigger on an empty chamber when your expecting to launch a slug is easy to notice. Of course, my first thougt was, "It must be the gun". That 870 was eventually sold and replaced by another (both were Wingmasters, btw). The short-shucking problem persisted.

Finally, last year, I had my brother video tape me while I shot through a couple gun fulls of high brass. In 10 rounds, I had 3 or 4 empty chambers when there shouldn't have been. Replaying the video tape didn't show anything,,,,,until we replayed it in slow motion. Then it became VERY obvious. During recoil, my non-firing hand was sliding back and forth on the forearm like I was stroking the damn thing. Sometimes my hand slid right off the end of the forearm. I wasn't even aware that this was happening.

So, back the the range we went and with a firm grip on the forearm I tried it again (with video camera along to keep me honest). My hand stayed in place and I experienced ZERO short-shucks. Actually, on the last round, my grip loosened (the camera was quick to point it out), but I still avoided any functioning problems.

My thoughts.
1. The shooter is as much a part of the system as the firearm and ammunition and all three components must work or the system won't work.

2. Many will say a pump is more reliable than a semi-auto and that may be true if you are looking at the firearms only and not considering the entire shooting system. I think if the shooter happens to be the week link (me), a semi-auto shotgun may compensate and provide a more reliable shooting system.

3. I believe I don't have a problem with trap loads simply because they don't recoil hard enough. My lazy grip is tuned in to work just fine with the light loads.

4. How many rounds of dedicated practice would I require to reprogram my muscle memory and train away my bad habits? I don't know. I do know that, presently, it isn't a priority in my life. This is why I have a Benelly M2 sitting in the safe next to the 870.

Hopefully, my experience will help others, especially instructors to help shooters who struggle with the short-shucking problem.

John
 
Thanks for the explanation Lee and no I have never read any Heinlein although I do have a cat named Willis.Many folks who's opinions I respect have talked about that authors works and I reckon I need to check them out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top