Holowpoints & Softpoints in Combat

Maybe a little. Bullet effectiveness isn't the problem over there. We don't just shoot them once, we hose them. I like m855 ammo because I like that I can shred an oncoming car if I need to and still perforate whomever is driving it.

We never signed the Hague Accords. Whether or not the other side complies has nothing to do with why we still follow them. The only reason we haven't scrapped the whole idea is that some leaders still think the world cares what kind of bullets we use. They think we have something left to lose in world image that can be saved with this ridiculous distinction.

Would the AK become more or less effective with "hunting" ammo? Would the AR do better, or worse? Would our troops be better off if the "gloves came off"?

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I firmly believe that both would greatly benefit from HP/SP projectiles, and the insurgents very likely have used these "illegal" rounds in limited quantities (they use what they can get), but I seriously doubt that we (the US armed forces) would stoop to their level even if there was widespread use.

I like m855 ammo because I like that I can shred an oncoming car if I need to and still perforate whomever is driving it.

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I respectfully disagree, I have no combat experience (and I don't doubt your experience, I know you have the credentials), but I believe that good 5.56 HPs would do equally well against all but concrete and such. I have penetrated 0.25in. of mild steel with .223Rem. HPs with no problems...so I think it would do equally well (not to say that it would penetrate as far, but a windscreen would be no contest IMO).

I have heard police use expanding bullets. If the object is to put down the enemy expanding bullets would do considerable more damage wouldn't they?

IMHO...Both the AK & AR would be more effective against personal with SP/HP...but probably not against "harder" targets. Or maybe body armor ?

The 7.62x39s mass in its projectile would over power the ARs speed advantage. But.... the advantage to the ARs ammo is its carry weight. Given 8 magazines of each, which would you rather carry/have to "fight" with, on your body ? There are so many varibles to combat....the various armies around the world have tried for centuries to find the perfect do all weapon...and we are still working on it.

I can't help but wonder if proper firearm training (shoot placement)and tactics (read, experience) can do more to save someones life then changing to a SP/HP.

Sorry, I'm rambling.... ultimately whether it takes one SP/HP or one FMJ to put you out of commission isn't the question in combat, rather, how you got shot in the first place matters.

I'm interested in seeing the other responses.

Again, no easy answer for me.

1. Relative availability is at poor compared to military ball. Not nearly as much made, so illicit availability is low and expensive.

2. Reliable feeding would be poor. Pointy FMJ meets its design requirements.

...but probably not against "harder" targets. Or maybe body armor?

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Does fine against 0.25in. plate...I have no doubts it will perforate soft body armor without hesitation (as with just about any other rifle round).

Reliable feeding would be poor. Pointy FMJ meets its design requirements.

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True with HPs, not so with polymer tipped ammo. That'd be the ticket IMO.

Soft point and hollow point ammo might give some advantage against unarmored targets.

It would seem that modern body armor makes them impracticable against well-equipped US forces.

Are we well-advised to go to an ammunition type that would become effectively useless when the target wears good body armor?

It would seem that modern body armor makes them impracticable against well-equipped US forces.

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And lets hope it stays that way.

Are we well-advised to go to an ammunition type that would become effectively useless when the target wears good body armor?

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Nothing short of 12.7mm will effectively penetrate ceramic hard plates, it is effective up to 7.62mm.

mljdeckard said:

We never signed the Hague Accords.

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Sure we did. If you're military you should know and be aware of this too.

Hague Convention 1899 US signed April 9th 1900
Hague Convention 1907 US signed January 26th 1910

So yes indeed we do have something to lose and very little to gain by contravening the Hague, which is the underpinning of the Geneva conventions.

At the moment the US is fighting irregulars who don't respect either of these, but at some future time that may not be the case, and you don't want to return to warfare pre-Geneva and the Hague. Unless you'd like to see civilians as viable military targets again.

I'm sure that Vladimir Putin and Hu Jintao would be very interested to see if the US contravene's the Hague; not to mention Horst Köhler, since it was historically his country that requested it.

Our current standard issue body armor to the average soldier will not stop 7.62x39mm ammo nor 5.56 regardless of projectile launched. The highest available for standard issue for vest and helmet are level 3a, pistol/shotgun class protection. A lot of guys are wearing 1a and 2a with a trauma plate, what they call a second chance vest.

Sierra matchkings in 77gr (mk 262) are readily available to special forces. M885 green tips are known for the penetrator core dislodging from bullet in soft targets. In fact we are essentially using hunting type ammo. In both bullets above there is expansion just like hunting bullets in flesh. The difference being the tip on the m885 stays intact on armor and has limited ability to defeat hard surfaces such as non armored vehicles. The mk 262 is less effective on hard targets, however it is more effective on soft targets. The link below has some info on a test. If you don't care about the performance, there are some pictures of what they do in gelatin.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest6/Test6.htm The mk262 is known as a head grenade in the sandbox. These pictures show why. The mk262 is a very good expanding bullet over a hundred yards. Under a hundred it is a head grenade.

Nothing short of 12.7mm will effectively penetrate ceramic hard plates, it is effective up to 7.62mm.

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I thought those plates give out after three shots or so?

i always thought the same thing. but, in some cases, penetration is king. i have no combat experience, so i wont chime in on either effectivness on people. however, we seem to be killing them with the fmj's that we already have. i think the initial shocking power would be greater from hp's or sp's, but dead, is dead.

as far as what other countries think of us, i dont think that in anybody's mind, except a politicians (and they are all in la-la land anyway), that even plays into it. in reality, everyone else already hates us! i say we start using all ar-10s instead of ar-15s. a steel core 7.62x51 would have a lot more punch than a 5.56x45! or better yet, an incedinary 7.62! that would light their fire on their body armor!

I thought those plates give out after three shots or so?

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Not sure about that, but I do know that they are severely damaged (shatter) with each subsequent hit, so I don't doubt that three hits may the average maximum.

i say we start using all ar-10s instead of ar-15s. a steel core 7.62x51 would have a lot more punch than a 5.56x45! or better yet, an incedinary 7.62! that would light their fire on their body armor!

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Hell yea!!, and use .338LM for the issued sniper rifle!!

Everybody hates us anyways!!

Didn't are military once use expanding bullets?

Expanding ammunition would increase the stopping power of our ARs. However, there are many other reasons why they choose to use fmj. It is cheaper, penetrates armor and hard targets better, feeds most reliably, is most available and that annoying hague convention treaty. So for a large scale regular army it is the most practical option. Special forces are a different story. Yes I do believe our troops would be better off if the "gloves came off" and the polititions would let them do their job in the best way they see fit. But that will never happen unless we have a military government. Which is not something I want.

Also I believe we use small, fast bullets because the military small arms tactics have changed from using low volume fire with especially powerful cartridges to high volume fire with light cartridges that can be carried in bulk. Now it seems that having more ammo is better than having less ammo that is more powerful.

Unlikely change in usage, for starters. Considering availabiltiy and extra costs, I doubt if Iran, et al, want to kick in the extra money. Now, their ammo is coming from existing stock. The change would require new orders, and would be viewed with suspicion by manufacturers. That would open up a whole new can of worms for the present supply chain.

Probably not much increase in utility for the insurgents, anyway. Wind up with our side taking fewer prisoners, probably...

Soft-point and hollowpoint ammunition would be great if we still formed up in lines, shoulder to shoulder, and faced off. But, since we have abandoned Napoleonic tactics in lieu of others that work far better, SP and HP rounds would quickly lose their effectiveness when attempting to stop vehicles, punch through cover to hit a target and similar shenanigans that modern combat calls for. The closest thing to HP ammunition is open tip match rounds, but they do not perform at all like HP's, despite the visual similarity.

The Spanish-American war would be the last time they were general issue, in the form of 45-70-500 round nosed lead bullets.

But that will never happen unless we have a military government

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why is that? The gov't runs the military and makes them operate with restrictions that make it rediculous for our troops.

The reason we don't use expanding bullets is because the in 1898, the German government lodged a protest against the use of the Mark IV bullet, claiming the wounds produced by the Mark IV were excessive and inhumane. Soon after the Hague convention took place. Expanding bullets are way more devastating thats why in most places you have to use them hunting to help insure a humane kill.

But we did not sign it, we are just trying to look like good guys to a bunch of foreigners and liberal newsies who hate us anyhow.

And there is no legal burden on us if we had, we are not at war with a sovereign nation.

And we are using some number of open point target bullets under a hairsplitting interpretation that makes it ok because the intent is to hit the threats farther away, not hurt them worse.

And the army has prototyped the Limited Penetration 9mm round, which is basically a Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet with radio opaque silicone in the nose in case they need to dig them out of somebody.

M885 green tips are known for the penetrator core dislodging from bullet in soft targets. In fact we are essentially using hunting type ammo. In both bullets above there is expansion just like hunting bullets in flesh. The difference being the tip on the m885 stays intact on armor and has limited ability to defeat hard surfaces such as non armored vehicles.

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"penetrator core" vs. "the tip on the m885 stays intact" Que????
Right the first time. There's a small piece of titanium in there that keeps on going when the rest of the lead and copper jacket stops. There is no "tip" per say; they got painted green to differentiate from the ones painted red: tracers.
This is definitely NOT hunting ammo....unless you're after the most dangerous game.

Considering availabiltiy and extra costs, I doubt if Iran, et al, want to kick in the extra money. Now, their ammo is coming from existing stock. The change would require new orders, and would be viewed with suspicion by manufacturers. That would open up a whole new can of worms for the present supply chain.

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Wow. I just assumed that Iran would have built a cartridge factory long before they built nuclear labs....is their ammo supply really all imported? ...tactical error!

There's a small piece of titanium in there that keeps on going when the rest of the lead and copper jacket stops.

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Man, I got the cheap stuff, all mine has is a steel front core.

Can someone please provide a reference as to whether The US has, or has not signed the Hague Convention? I have heard both stated in this thread, and can only find a brief mention in the footnotes of the Wiki page. It suggests that the US is indeed a participation country.