ACR's are now for sale...

Nah, if it was late night adverts it would have to be some sort of special 'European steel'.

My one big question is just why precisely the gun forum world has decided to collectively crap upon the ACR, and insists on going to making such great contortions of logic to justify the sudden overwhelming hate. So far I've seen people complaining about every last little detail, down to (false) claims that it doesn't include a rifle case, and whining that it ships with a PMag (REALLY? Color me shocked! And why is that a bad thing, again?).

Back when I first handled the Masada at SHOT, I was only mildly, vaguely interested...to about the same degree that I cared about the XCR or the SCAR. Now that time has passed, and I've had the opportunity to see the ACR evolve, I'm honestly convinced that it's got the best potential for longevity amongst any of the current passle of 5.56 AR-alternative carbines on the market. The controls are superior, the configurations offer a good selection of options, and the overall rifle clearly shows that it was designed with a meticulous attention to detail.

In comparison we have the Sig 556 - a decent enough rifle (and the carbine I shoot the most), but severely lacking in the details. The XCR is another good design, but it's still not quite all the way "there". Why people seem to think the FNH name guarantees quality is beyond me, as the SCAR is a laughable joke of a rifle - the Belgians may have actually suceeded in making a rifle with worse ergonomics than an HK.

If dealer price is $2000, I don't see them being sold for less than that. For $2400 you can get the SCAR or the XCR with the same features as the advanced ACR, not just the basic model.

I think they really screwed the pooch with pricing.

None of the latest generation of plastic rifles intrigue me enough to want to buy one. Still, I am mystified by the hate for a rifle that only a few have handled and fewer yet have fired.

No thank you

No thank you also.

My one big question is just why precisely the gun forum world has decided to collectively crap upon the ACR,

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Because it costs more than $1500, which is at the upper end of what the average guy can conceive of paying for a rifle; also, they are bitter that it took so long and the cost increased. This is my speculation based on human nature.

As for the XCR-- no thanks. Ergonomics are terrible, poor industrial design, recoil is not smooth, and I am not a fan of the company after trying to get my M96 repaired something like ten years ago.

I want a practical rifle that has utter reliability, is versatile, easily configurable for specific purposes, and in specific, I want it to have low recoil/operating intertia impulses (from reciprocating mass), and a design that is synergistic with the best known practical shooting techniques. In short: versatile and high performance. In these aspects, for my use, it takes quite a design to even match the practical AR-15's I've built for 3Gun/practical use. However, of the new, non-AR15 designs, I think the ACR stands the best chance of evolving into that role.

-z

A fool and his money are soon parted... a very high price and a nich market. They are about 18 months too late. These would have flown off the shelves from Nov 2008 thru about August 2009. Now, particularly with the economy bust and the bottom falling out of the EBRs (AR15s are about $700 and AK47s are about $500), I venture they'll sell very few ACRs at $2400.

Nobody is buying these for REAL combat or law enforcement missions. People who buy these are/would do the same thing as the guy that buys his AR15. Trick it out and take it to the range. Why would someone spend 5 times the amount for an AR15? Conversely, you could buy an arsenal for the price of this glutonously priced ACR - you could pick up an M1A or MSAR bullpup ($1300 each), an AR15 ($700), and a Glock handgun ($500) or a Bold action Remington ($500) or a Tactical 870 ($400)

In these aspects, for my use, it takes quite a design to even match the practical AR-15's I've built for 3Gun/practical use. However, of the new, non-AR15 designs, I think the ACR stands the best chance of evolving into that role.

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I agree 100% with that statement. I like the ACR and I want it to succeed; but I just don't see the value in it as currently priced. Even if you lowered the price significantly to be competitive with some higher end ARs, the ACR is still on the porky side and an unknown as to durability and reliability.

If Bushmaster shows me $2,400 worth of value in a basic ACR, then I'll pay $2,400 for one. So far though, Bushmaster has not done a very good job of distinguishing how their product is different from other 5.56 semi-auto rifles - and I am somebody who pays attention to differences most people would consider minor. Right now, it looks to me like I can get more features in a $1,500 AR15 than a $2,400 ACR. Of course, even if Bushmaster was able to convince me there was $2,400 of features I wanted in the rifle, I'd probably still hold off at this point since they've also told me that an ACR with even more features is on the way.

That price is better than the $2,700-3,000 Bushmaster originally wanted, but its still at least $700 too high IMO...

Price will stay around 2,500 for the next 18 months or so then we'll begin to see it gradually go down to 1,500 over the course of 2 years there after. Bushmaster is going to setup the production run to minimize excess capacity because it only eats out of their bottom line to do so otherwise. Accordingly the production run will be limited to only a few thousand rifles a year, which is a fraction of what the current demand for the rifle is given the significant amount of media coverage it's had over the last 2 years. Bushmaster can charge the 2,500 dollar for the basic model because there are enough gun enthusiasts who will purchase the gun regardless of it exceeding the 2,000 dollar price point. As these price-indifferent gun owners get their ACRs, the demand will decrease and Bushmaster will lower the price. Bushmaster's excess capacity will remain low and they'll maximize their return.

Does anyone remember when Microtech came out with their STG 556s? They were retailing for nearly 2,000, now they're nearly half that. Same thing that happened with microtech will happen here.

Not that I plan on getting one. But, has anyone seen reviews posted online yet ?

Sooo.... Let's see now...

It is made from Plastic, steel and unobtanium...for 2400 beans... For the base model...

It has features like.... a cool looking stock? Quick change barrel? Ok, I guess I can buy 2 ARs and have a quick change rifle....

It punches a bigger hole? ummmm, nope...It can... with an expensive barrel change... but, so can an AR.
It does it faster?
It has more accessories than an AR? Nope, the AR is the LEGO of the adult world.
Does it weigh more?
Does it have that Star Wars tactical look? Check

I dunno....Maybe I just don't see the need for a non customized hunk of Darth Vader gear that costs way more than a top end AR.

So, my guess is the fanboys with a large credit card balance will buy one... then after they sell the first 50, the sales will dry up... and they will pop a few a month... Other manufacturers of accessories will look at the sales base of 50 dudes and decline to enter the market with after market goodies. It is hard to spend R&D cash on a customer base that could fit into a Denny's. How many places are making accessories for the AR-180s... a few... not many.

So, this will end up like the XCR Just a footnote in history of some gun that a few people have that will soon be forgotten.

Or maybe it will be the big hit of the season and they will sell a million of em...Not willing to bet my money on it though.

So, this will end up like the XCR Just a footnote in history of some gun that a few people have that will soon be forgotten

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What's up with the XCR bad mouthing? The XCR is out there, and has been there FOR A WHILE NOW. On top of that, RobArm isn't charging an absurd price.

My one big question is just why precisely the gun forum world has decided to collectively crap upon the ACR, and insists on going to making such great contortions of logic to justify the sudden overwhelming hate.

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I don't see any hate necessarily, just critique of a VERY expensive rifle. For that price it just seems there should be more to it.

the configurations offer a good selection of options

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Really? Such as? Oh, 2 colors....

For example, it offers me a quick change barrel but for now I have no options in what I can change the barrel to. Where are different twist rates and maybe lengths? Well, that's on the "coming soon" list.
Am I supposed to buy the rifle in anticipation that maybe CMMG will offer barrels? Or that Bushmaster will introduce them later on? That's asking a lot. If all of these options become available at some point it would change things, but they are not there yet.

I'm very happy to see it enter the market, as I'm happy to see any rifle of this type enter the market. I hope that it sells VERY well and I am certain that it will.

But, it seems to have taken quite a turn from the original Masada platform and that's disappointing. That and lots of the options are not there day one. That's not unusual by itself, but with them missing it makes it harder to justify the price to me early on.

Why people seem to think the FNH name guarantees quality is beyond me

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So you think that Bushmaster makes a better quality product than FN? Personally I would trust any gun that comes from FN with my life, I can't say the same about Bushmaster.

as the SCAR is a laughable joke of a rifle - the Belgians may have actually suceeded in making a rifle with worse ergonomics than an HK.

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I've handled the SCAR and I really liked the ergonomics and feel of it. To each his own.

Oh look another 5.56 and 6.8 SPC rifle. Yipeee! Oh wait, i've already got my M4gery and have no interest in adding another poodle shooter to the mix. Now if this rifle came out with what was advertised a 7.62x39 and 5.56 quick change option I'd be interested. But at over 2k, still not worth it. Pass. If there's something I would want to save my pennies for it's an RFB. Now that's something new and different.

Bartholomew Roberts said:

To be fair to Bushmaster, the barrel has a special proprietary lining that Bushmaster says is superior to chrome-lining. Given that several other manufacturers are already offering nitrided AR barrels, I would guess it is something similar to that.

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Could someone elaborate on this? One of the legitimate deal-breakers for the ACR as it stands is the perceived lack of a robust barrel. If we could hear some particulars about this proprietary lining that is supposedly superior to chrome-lining, that would be very interesting.

I'm not sure anyone really knows what the barrel lining is. All educated guesses point to nitriding of some sort, but I don't think Bushmaster has actually said that's what it is.

Incidentally, most forms of nitriding are not only as beneficial as chrome lining, but are actually cheaper as well. Glock has been using nitriding (their "Tenifer" process) on their pistols since their introduction in the 1980's. DSA is currently selling AR15 uppers with nitrided barrels for, get this, a whopping $10 more than non-nitrided chrome-moly barrels. Nitriding is a good surface treatment, but should not cost any significant premium.

That certainly seems to defeat the argument that the ACR is crap for having a non chrome-lined barrel, though. The price seems to be the biggest deal breaker thus far, the barrel twist rate comes in at a distant second.

FWIW, the dealer price for the $2400 one is still around $2000. I checked today at a distributor

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Hmmm very close to dealer price on the SCAR from what I understand (I could of course have been told incorrectly).

Does anyone remember when Microtech came out with their STG 556s? They were retailing for nearly 2,000, now they're nearly half that. Same thing that happened with microtech will happen here.

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Actually, what happened with the STG 556 was that it sold for around $1600-1800 they then started producing the version that took AR mags and it still sells for $1500 (sans optic). The AR version has more demand than the proprietary mag version and thus the orginal is being sold for around $1K so people can move them out. Another factor may have been Steyr getting back in the game.

I don't see any major differences between what is offered, and the original "masada"... It is actually remarkably similar all things considered, except for the projected price.

I bought an AK before the Masada existed. I bought an AK after the ACR existed. I bought an XCR before the ACR existed.

On my wish list now is a SCAR (safe queen), and early plans I'm kicking around for another XCR... no ACR present, and it will remain that way until the ACR market morphs with some more features and less price, because at the moment, it is overpriced even compared to the overpriced SCAR, and under-featured compared to the built-tougher, better featured, lower cost XCR.

I don't see any major differences between what is offered, and the original "masada"... It is actually remarkably similar all things considered, except for the projected price.

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Almost 2 pounds.... of something. That's a lot of weight gain, not sure why that happened.

Really? Such as? Oh, 2 colors....

For example, it offers me a quick change barrel but for now I have no options in what I can change the barrel to. Where are different twist rates and maybe lengths? Well, that's on the "coming soon" list.
Am I supposed to buy the rifle in anticipation that maybe CMMG will offer barrels? Or that Bushmaster will introduce them later on? That's asking a lot. If all of these options become available at some point it would change things, but they are not there yet.

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Considering that the rifle has only been shipping for the past week or so, it might not be unreasonable to expect that it might take a little while for more parts to become available.

After all, how long has the SCAR been available? And how many OEM or aftermarket components are available for it? Oh, right.

So you think that Bushmaster makes a better quality product than FN? Personally I would trust any gun that comes from FN with my life, I can't say the same about Bushmaster.

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FN makes certain weapons fairly well, but FNH-USA's commercial offerings have typically been rather lacking IMO. Of all the FN's I've sold, I've seen far too many issues across far too many platforms - FNP frames that cracked, FS2000 feed components broken, Five-seveN pistols that categorically refused to function despite repeated repairs, etc. The PS90 is about their only weapon that I haven't personally witnessed fail in dramatic fashion. Overall they have a tendency to use too much polymer in the wrong places in their weapons.

Add to that stupid mistakes like shipping SAWs without barrels or bolts, and their CS record...it adds up. Bushmaster may not be Noveske, but neither are they Hi-Point. And I have a certain amount of faith in a product originating from Magpul.

I've handled the SCAR and I really liked the ergonomics and feel of it. To each his own.

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Charging handle placement, safety design, folding stock release latch, front sight release bar, etc...all throughout the weapon it's like it was simply built to function 'most of the time', rather than designed and planned for extended, frequent use by human beings.

Hmmm very close to dealer price on the SCAR from what I understand (I could of course have been told incorrectly).

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Offhand, it's my understanding that dealer price on the SCAR is still at least $100 higher than the ACR.

Does anyone remember when Microtech came out with their STG 556s? They were retailing for nearly 2,000, now they're nearly half that. Same thing that happened with microtech will happen here.

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Things with the MSAR situation are more complicated than it would seem. The original rifles were $2k +, but they were packaged with a $100+ Pelican case, a $200 knife and what was $100 worth of mags. After the limited editions were done, the rifles were selling pretty damn well at $1600, then our economy went to hell in a handbasket. Microtech came out and dropped their pricing on all their products (knives included), stating the decline of the economy as the reason for this change. At that same time, MSAR also needed to be more competitive against the Steyr/Sabre AUG A3. The consumer wins and continues to do so. Bushy's only competitor now is the SCAR, and they placed themselves into that situation by placing the price point at 24 C-notes. I believe the ACR will be subject to different market forces than the MSARs.

The Masada was never particularly noteworthy to me, particularly because barrel changes and caliber swaps are not something I would ever actually use. We've also seen other companies offer "caliber changes" as a talking point, but very few have delivered. Where's all the XCR & Microtech caliber-swap kits? At the originally proposed $1300 price point, I could see why people were attracted to the Masada/ACR, but at twice the price I'm just not seeing it. While I understand the neutering of the stock for ban states, I am baffled why this would be the first version available. While Bushy Marketing claims the Nitrided barrel is better than chrome lining, I think that remains to be seen.

I think a lot of shooters have wised up to the whole concept(gimmick?) of over-priced plastic rifles filled with promises that may or may not come to fruition. The core system needs to be good and reasonably affordable. I don't see them making any inroads to the Military, or even LE community at $2400 a pop. Not when there's ARs (and associated contracts and/or sale programs) available to them at $600-$700. Not in an economy where fiscal budgets are being cut left and right.