ACR's are now for sale...

[Bartholomew Roberts]

But let's put the cost in perspective. Your average entry-level AR-15 is around $800. Add a UBR stock: +$250, add sling swivel hardware $80, add BUIS $100 (minumum), add MIAD/TG $50, add ambi controls $80, add float tube / top rail system $200. Just considering those changes you're at about $1500.

Except you've got a top notch adjustable stock, iron sights front and rear, the barrel twist of your choice, and four rails (if you want them) instead of a plastic handguard with a top rail. You are also almost a pound lighter than the basic ACR and still $900 shy of the AIM Surplus retail price.

The piston is basically an AR180 system. There isn't anything particularly new there that I see adding $900 worth of value. The quick-change barrel is a nice feature; but not one I really need and if the basic rifle is going to be $2,400, I'm afraid I'll be able to buy a new upper cheaper than any future conversions (when/if they are available).

 

[WmCC]

Easy there, gents!!! I'll wager all of you that the STREET PRICE will be $1,800 plus or minus change within 24 months...just sayin'...

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I want to use 69gr or 75gr TAP in a tactical/fighting rifle...1:9 is perfect for people who want to go to the range and shoot 55gr milsurp all day.

For general purpose, especially when light barriers are anticipated, mid-weight 60-64gr bullets outperform heavier bullets. My general purpose battle carry cartridge is the Federal Vital-Shok Nosler 60gr Partition JSP (P223Q). I handload the same bullet for training.

The heavier bullets shine in situations where light barriers are unlikely to be encountered.

 

[Zak Smith]

FWIW, the dealer price for the $2400 one is still around $2000. I checked today at a distributor.

On the ammo thing, I would like the ability to shoot the heaviest mag-length loads and the 70gr TSX.

While I don't see the need for a true "quick change" barrel (I had an MRP when they first came out), the ability to throw on a 6.8 or 6.5 or .300 Whisper barrel for a particular event or use is pretty attractive-- and cheaper than having a separate complete upper (what I do now).

 

[TexasRifleman]

For general purpose, especially when light barriers are anticipated, mid-weight 60-64gr bullets outperform heavier bullets. My general purpose battle carry cartridge is the Federal Vital-Shok Nosler 60gr Partition JSP (P223Q). I handload the same bullet for training.

That's your choice. Mine is the 75gr TAP. I like rifles that allow for personal choices.

Arguing that I need to change my choice of ammo to fit a particular rifle is doing it backwards.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Arguing that I need to change my choice of ammo to fit a particular rifle is doing it backwards.

That's not the case here. Mission requirements, which include being able to reliably defeat light barrier materials, particularly laminated automotive windshield glass, and retain the potential to deliver a rapidly incapacitating wound is an important capability to some. Mid-weight, lead core JSP bullets provide this capability better than heavier bullets and solid-copper bullets.

 

[taliv]

if you can do a quick-change barrel, how come you can't quick change it out to one with a 7 twist?

it's not like there won't be a market for your old 9 twist, what with all the folks that would want to SBR the thing needing a barrel to hack down.

i haven't looked at the quick-change mechanism, but presumably it's like just about all others... a barrel + some flavor of barrel extension. is it possible to remove the extension from your barrel and have krieger or somebody put a new barrel in there?

how long will it be before CMMG is offering new barrels for the ACR?

granted, you might not want to jump on one this instant, at these prices... but it doesn't mean the platform is forever ruined

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

and cheaper than having a separate complete upper (what I do now).

Well, we can hope at least. It should be cheaper; but looking at the rifle price I am not as confident.

The other issue they have is that you can get a full-fledged, FN SCAR with the rails, folding/collapsible stock, etc. - basically the same feature set of the Advanced ACR; but with military testing and currently operational - for $2,300-$2,400. That is not a good comparison for the ACR, especially with the basic version having less features.

And of course, there is the whole thing where the Bushmaster rep stated that a lighter, 1:7 version was in development and would eventually be released. So it is kind of hard to get on board with paying a top premium price for a beta product that is going to be replaced by a lighter, upgraded version. Although I guess if you wanted to collect it, this would probably have some value 40 years from now.

 

[paintballdude902]

if it was in the original masada configuration i would gladly pay what a brand new top of the line AR costs...but not 2400

i for see that price dropping below 2k within a year but not with all the extras that come with the advanced model

 

[Kangspec]

Hmm...i was looking at Noveske that cost $2300.

i dont know, i just dont like the look of ACR.

 

[Coronach]

I'm disappointed at the price and relative lack of features that the ACR is currently sporting, as opposed to what was possible with the Masada. That doesn't mean that I've given up on the ACR, it just means that I'm not on the phone to my FFL with my credit card gripped tightly in my sweaty hand. I will not be an early adopter of this one. I can't help but think that Cerberusremingtonbushmaster is going to work out the teething problems while soaking the early adopters. No thanks.

That said, if the following things happen, I'll probably pick one up:

1. The rifle does not suck.

2. The street price drops to a reasonable level for this 'baseline' model, and/or something with more features starts being offered at the current price.

3. The market starts to offer additional features (stock options, rails, barrels in different twist rates, lengths and profiles).

4. The multicaliber capability comes to fruition in the market.

I will NOT be buying it until those four things happen. Not even tempted. But if those things do happen...hmmm. Who am I kidding? I'll take the plunge.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

BTW, what's the weight difference between the Masada prototypes and the ACR? And where is the added weight? Is it just additional reinforcement of the receiver (which should increase durability and be relatively balance-neutral), or os it someplace else?

Mike

 

[hoodfu]

Coronach, my take on your points:

1. everything points to the rifle not sucking from those who have fired it and the tests which anyone can find on youtube of submerged testing etc. Obviously we'll find out about this soon enough as people get their hands on it.

2. can't argue with the pricing, but being an Apple fan, I'm unfortunately familiar with paying premiums for the cool toy of the week.

3. they offer multiple stock options, collapsible and non, enhanced or basic for different rail options, inserts on the MOE style plastic frame or built-in rails. They do offer both 1:7 and 1:9 twist rates (not sure why people are still calling this out, this info has been available for at least a month now) and various barrel lengths are available.

4. It is available for multi-caliber, although I'm really hoping that the 7.62x39mm featured on the futureweapons segment comes to pass instead of just the rarely seen 6.8 remington option. I remember asking a Remington rep at shot show for more info on the 6.8, and why they decided to make the ACR available with it. He paused for an awkwardly long time and said "Yeah, the 6.8 is kind of been a marketing failure as a whole." I expected him to say more about the round itself, like it's abilities, but he didn't.

A bit of a test fire:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Video.aspx?vid=2174&cid=23

 

[Zak Smith]

. I remember asking a Remington rep at shot show for more info on the 6.8, and why they decided to make the ACR available with it. He paused for an awkwardly long time and said "Yeah, the 6.8 is kind of been a marketing failure as a whole."

That's an interesting way for him to put it considering Remington commercialized the cartridge.

-z

 

[Z-Michigan]

The other issue they have is that you can get a full-fledged, FN SCAR with the rails, folding/collapsible stock, etc. - basically the same feature set of the Advanced ACR; but with military testing and currently operational - for $2,300-$2,400. That is not a good comparison for the ACR, especially with the basic version having less features.

Let's see here, do I want a new gun design from the most prominent and respected military firearms maker in the entire world, which has been designed from the ground up to be better than the M16/M4 in all ways and has been accepted by some units of the US military; or do I want a gun design that was originally conceived by a highly respected but smaller gun-accessory house and then "commercialized" by a mid-tier AR-15 manufacturer with a reputation for average quality control and occasional issues with things like chamber dimensions. Yes, let me think about this for a bit.

Yes, I'm aware that the SCAR has some reports of teething issues, but that's also for a gun getting hard use by "high speed" types. The only ACR report I've heard from someone I'm remotely acquainted with could be summed up as "not impressed."

And I cannot help but repeat the issue: the ACR was designed with modern materials and manufacturing techniques. It should be cheaper than an AR-15, not twice as expensive as a top notch AR.

 

[Lanyard]

Price has nothing to do with the price of raw materials.

Apple vs HP
Daewoo vs BMW
Generic vs Pepsi

The newest materials and production methods are expensive.

I bet not many here forked out $2000 for one of the first CD players in the 80's either. But I bet everyone has one now.

Lanyard

p.s. The SCAR is dead to the military.

 

[Shear_stress]

Price has nothing to do with the price of raw materials.

The newest materials and production methods are expensive.

So which is it?

If anyone is aware of any new materials or production methods in the ACR, I'm all ears. As far as I know, there is nothing particularly innovative about either.

I can't help but think that Cerberusremingtonbushmaster is going to work out the teething problems while soaking the early adopters.

About sums it up. Early adopters are a gold mine for companies because they are willing to pay the most for the buggiest stuff. Some folks are more than willing to accept the role of unpaid beta testers in exchange for trendiness. The beauty of capitalism is that the rest of us can choose not to.

The ACR may, in time, turn out to be a good rifle. To me, there's nothing compelling enough about it to merit that kind price at this point.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I still fail to see why anyone would get this over an XCR at any price, let alone for $600 more than an XCR.

 

[One-Time]

Ive been looking at the new basic ACR and the stock doesnt fold, it has plastic BUIS', it weighs as much as a fully tricked out M4 does, the barrel is not chrome lined so i see zero purpose, all it is basically is a overly heavy non featured hunk of crap w/ an absurd price

You give me one for 1/2 that price w/ decent BUIS, a folding stock(theres no excuse NOT to have one on here) and a chrome lined barrel and well talk, otherwise Ill buy a XCR or a Piston AR

 

[One-Time]

stubbicatt
Member


Join Date: August 23, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,574

I wish them well. I would like to see Magpul succeed. I'm sure they get royalties or some arrangement with Bushmaster. I will not be spending that kind of money on what for me is simply a toy, something to play around with and leave in the gun safe.

I have no need for such a weapon, and since I have settled on 308 as a cartridge for my EBR type uses...

I am disappointed tho.

MagPuls rifle would have succeded, but Bushmaster basically hijacked the project and kicked MagPul to the curb and then screwed up their rifle

 

[Shear_stress]

MagPuls rifle would have succeded, but Bushmaster basically hijacked the project and kicked MagPul to the curb and then screwed up their rifle

It's not like Bushmaster stole the ACR from the mouths of babes or poor, little Mag-Pul. They either bought the design outright or pay a licensing fee. Either way, Mag-Pul stands to profit handsomely from a rifle they were not really able to bring to full scale production in the first place. Happens all the time in industry.

 

[taliv]

I still fail to see why anyone would get this over an XCR at any price, let alone for $600 more than an XCR.

i'd buy an AK before i bought an XCR

 

[CoRoMo]

I could afford an AK before I could afford an XCR.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

How come, Taliv?

And exactly WHAT was dropped off the ACR that the Masada was supposed to have had? What features, specifically, did Bushmaster nix?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

the barrel is not chrome lined so i see zero purpose,

To be fair to Bushmaster, the barrel has a special proprietary lining that Bushmaster says is superior to chrome-lining. Given that several other manufacturers are already offering nitrided AR barrels, I would guess it is something similar to that.

Personally, I would be happy to see some sort of new, super-finish that prolonged the service life of the barrel. Hell, if the finish is good enough, maybe it even justifies the $900 price delta remarked on earlier; but I'd like to see some specifics on performance. Bushmaster's marketing point of "It is a proprietary super finish that extends barrel life" is kind of short on details and sounds more like late night TV advertising.