Are You Comfortable With Face To Face Transactioins?

sernv99 said:

I live in VA and we are allowed to do FTF sales. I will not do a FTF sale unless the buyer goes through a dealer for a transfer. I prefer the gun to be "out of my name" if the gun is ever used in a crime. If the buyer can't pony up $20 for a transfer fee, it usually means he can't legally own the firearm to begin with.

Click to expand...

So let me get this straight.... you want the BUYER to pay the transfer fee to alleviate YOUR fears and to benefit YOU? Ummm.... let me think about that. Nope. Does not pass my common sense check.

I have made a couple of FTF transactions. I always ask them this question:

"Can you pass a NICS check"

If they say yes then I am OK. I then ask for some ID, and make out a bill of sale.

If someone refuses to show me a DL and does not want to sign a bill of sale then something is fishy, and I would not do the transaction.

I've sold/bought face to face many times with no paperwork and without checking any credentials. If they give you a bad vibe just call off the sale, otherwise don't sweat it.

I just did my second ever FTF sale today and have to say that I could really get used to it. It ends the paper trail on the gun and there is no fee.

...sorry but I believe in only US citizens having the right to keep and bear arms.

Click to expand...

Just wow ...

But in any case, I'd have absolutely no problems selling a gun face to face unless the person is really shady. And I do mean really shady.
The problem with these horror scenarios is that if we overanalyze every move the potential buyer is making we're no better than ye olde nasty government who "wants to take our guns away."
The nature of rights is that they're not necessarily fun or easy or even good for everyone, but the moment we decide to deprive others of them, we're the ones who are depriving them the right, logically.
Now, I'm not saying we should sell to someone we know to not be able to own a firearm legally, but I am saying that all this talk of "I don't like their face" (which is exactly what it is) reeks oddly of the first step to the logic that "only the people whose face I like should own guns." And I don't think anyone who isn't on this board purely by accident can get behind that logic.

Edit:

Actually now that I'm thinking about it, the question here isn't so much about FTF transfers, but rather about the private citizen conducting firearms business. A certified dealer, for instance is no different than the average citizen in terms of power. Sure he has access to background checks and as such is held to a higher standard when it comes to the sale of firearms, but the law is written so that an individual lacking said access can still do business (in a more limited sense, of course) without being faced with legal ramifications.
So yes, the question here really is, "Who do you feel should own a firearm?"
I guess my feeling on that is that, unless I know either by their admittance or by some other source that they are not legally able to carry a firearm, I will sell to them. I am in the clear, legally and if I denied the the right to lawfully buy a firearm because for some reason I "didn't like their face" I'd be a hypocrite. The key piece of my logic here is a simple principle, name the one of wanting to be treated fairly.
I wouldn't want to be denied a firearm, because the seller didn't like ... oh .. my tats, my wife (who has even more than me,) my lifestyle, my car, my proverbial "face." Culture or "properness" is so varied that frankly any pretense that I can judge who is reputable or credible is false, simply because I don't know.
Take for example a "traditional" pacific islander who wants to buy my Mossy.
I am sitting in a parking lot and here comes this guy covered in ink and a nicely lowered car (just for cliché's sake) with some music of indeterminable language coming out of it. He steps out of it and walks up to me (with my tank-top, ink and metal coming from my car) and says "Yo, you the guy who's selling the Mossy?"
I say "Sure! You Bob?
He says "Yup. Been wanting one of those for a while now. Can I take a look?" I hand him the shotgun and he looks it over, nods and says "Nice. Just the workhorse you said." Satisfied, I grin and nod and say "Yup, it hurts parting with it, but I'm sure it's going to a good home."
We exchange some money and a bill of sale, that I copied from some legalese website and go on our merry way.

This scenario is as likely as it is controversial to let's say ... any white-collar kinda businessman with highly conservative values.
Clearly through our clothing, our vehicles and our language we've looked anything but "professional" and as such should clearly not own a firearm.
What he doesn't know, is that both our vehicles are paid for by a paycheck, courtesy of the U.S Army and that the "traditional pacific islander" is a shooting buddy of mine, who liked the look of my shotgun and is better with it than I am.

The fact is that we as private citizens simply don't have the means to know a "legitimate" person from a "non legitimate" one. And while it's our right to not sell to someone whose face we don't like, unless they give us a good legal reason to not sell to them very remotely we are kind of undermining the fair and legal distribution of firearms in accordance with the second amendment.

If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

rondog said:

If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

Click to expand...

Maybe they showed up like that because they're worried that YOU are a scumbag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

Maybe they showed up like that because they're worried that YOU are a scumbag?

Click to expand...

Naw man, I'm a teddy bear!

Naw man, I'm a teddy bear!

Click to expand...

The point is that a buyer is giving you a lot of trust when they show up, in fact they are about guaranteed to be meeting a "man with a gun", and be bringing cash to a "man with a gun" so you shouldn't be surprised if they take precautions or have some situational awareness, or look a bit nervous.

We wouldn't have problems with FTF transactions if a few things changed
1 - if people acted rational about firearms and treated them like tools
2 - if the default attitude was to treat a fellow citizen the way you would like to be treated, not like a potential felon
3 - if the paranoia about "paper trails" and future uses would go away

I have done f2f mostly at gun show parking lots. Once was purchasing an AMT backup with wallet holster. I was a little nervous but the guy seemed very professional. After the sale he told me not to carry the pistol in the holster because that makes it an AOW. I said ok but gave him a quizzical look that must have said "what do you care? YOU just sold it to me". Then he showed me his badge!

So let me get this straight.... you want the BUYER to pay the transfer fee to alleviate YOUR fears and to benefit YOU? Ummm.... let me think about that. Nope. Does not pass my common sense check.

so let me get this straight....you want me, the SELLER, to take a buyer's word that he can pass the NICS and also judge him from his cool demeanor that he isn't hiding something that a background check would find out?? Let me think about that....Nope! Does not pass my common sense test.

The fact is that we as private citizens simply don't have the means to know a "legitimate" person from a "non legitimate" one.

you just proved my point......let the burden fall on the FFL and the federal NICS, etc.




I have made a couple of FTF transactions. I always ask them this question:

"Can you pass a NICS check"

If they say yes then I am OK

mmmmm, yeah, ok....... usually when someone is prevented from possessing a firearm due to one of the various reasons as outlined by the NICS, chances are the person is not going to answer truthfully. so how do you know the buyer is answering truthfully? See my post above: let the burden fall on the FFL and NICS.

I've done three FTF sales, two of which have been handguns. As others have said, just be sure to give your due diligence and follow your state laws. I live in Iowa.

When selling handguns, I require the buyer to show me their permit to acquire, CC license, or FFL. If you really wanna cover yourself, ask them to show their driver's license, and jot down the DL number.

If you have any reservations about the character of the buyer at all, simply take your gun elsewhere.

I had two pistols posted on Gunlistings.org once, and I had a very interested party who wanted both. He said he'd have the money next week and we were discussing a meeting place. When I reminded him over e-mail to make sure his permit or CC license were up to date, he responded back with "they wont let me renew mine cuz i was arested for a felony charge even though it was dropped"

So yeah.... lol

sernv99 said:

so let me get this straight....you want me, the SELLER, to take a buyer's word that he can pass the NICS and also judge him from his cool demeanor that he isn't hiding something that a background check would find out?? Let me think about that....Nope! Does not pass my common sense test.

Click to expand...

Why not? I am trusting you that the gun is not stolen. I am trusting you that there isn't something wrong with the gun. So, by your same standards, you should provide proof that your gun is not stolen before you attempt to sell it. Personally, I don't like giving the government more power than they require. The requirement is:

18 USC 922(a)(5):
who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the State in which the transferor resides...

18 USC 922(d):
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

18 USC 922(x):
(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—

Click to expand...

and on the buyers part, 18 USC 922 (j):

(j) It shall be unlawful for any person to receive... knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the firearm or ammunition was stolen.

Click to expand...

Notice the common language? Knows or reasonable cause to believe. So, by requiring proof that the person is not prohibited from possessing the gun, in my personal opinion, we are furthering the idea propagated by the anti-gun groups that those desiring to obtain guns are guilty until proven innocent. I did not pay for my CPL to prove to you or anyone else that I am lawful to buy/possess a gun. I paid for my CPL for the privilege of concealing my gun if I choose to do so and to carry my gun loaded in my car.

I have no problem with the NICS check, if I choose to buy a gun from an FFL, because that is the law. But I take exception, personally, to feeding the idea that those desiring to obtain guns are criminals until proven otherwise. In the realm of FTF firearms transactions, I will judge a book by its cover. If it looks good, then I will do it. If it don't look good, then I won't. But I am not going to further the government's and the anti-gun groups' desire to control every firearm transaction. And I am not going to violate another person's 4th amendment rights to privacy by requiring a copy of or record of their identifcation document.

I prefer the FTF deal. You get to meet some really nice, like minded people this way!

I am trusting you that the gun is not stolen. I am trusting you that there isn't something wrong with the gun. So, by your same standards, you should provide proof that your gun is not stolen before you attempt to sell it. Personally, I don't like giving the government more power than they require.


No one is forcing you to purchase my firearm or any other firearm through a private sale....the burden is on the buyer, not the seller. If you want it, then you deal with the seller's rules. Caveat Emptor. So your "logic" is flawed.

And your last statement just proves that you are a member of the tin-foil hat brigade. Gee, by your username, I assume you served under this big bad government that you so despise?

And your last statement just proves that you are a member of the tin-foil hat brigade.

Click to expand...

That's funny right there! Notice in my statement I said "by YOUR standards". I said nothing at all about it being my standards! All I am saying is it is a two way street.... and you're right, it's just a private deal and both parties have every right in the world to just move one. And both parties also have the right to be in disagreement with each other.

sernv99 said:

No one is forcing you to purchase my firearm or any other firearm through a private sale....the burden is on the buyer, not the seller. If you want it, then you deal with the seller's rules. Caveat Emptor. So your "logic" is flawed.

Click to expand...

No, however, if the seller wishes to sell something then the buyer has to be prepared to abide by the sellers conditions and may well request additional conditions on the sale, should the seller not be upfront about the conditions he requires for the sale to proceed. I certainly wouldn't buy from someone who on meeting face to face put a whole bunch of requirements and additional charges on top of the original advertised sale. If you think this is not an issue to most buyers, try advertising your next sale with your requirements, see how many people respond. Of course I'm sure that you can rationalize this as, well they probably couldn't legally buy it anyway.

I suggest you read the following http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=12&issue=020 to learn about how a firearm trace works, so you can see for yourself that the delusion that you're under is that operating as you do "removes your name from the firearm" it does not nor cannot remove the record of your initial purchase (by an unlicensed owner) of a new firearm. Which would be the first point of call in any BATF firearm trace.

sernv99 said:

And your last statement just proves that you are a member of the tin-foil hat brigade. Gee, by your username, I assume you served under this big bad government that you so despise?

Click to expand...

Ad Hominem, I guess a bunch of folks who wrote the constitution were tin-foil hat wearers too, since they actually structured a legal system in an attempt to minimize government, and at that point there wasn't any real government to speak of, how paranoid was that? Restricting a government that didn't even exist, sheesh those guys must have been completely out of their trees.

I certainly wouldn't buy from someone who on meeting face to face put a whole bunch of requirements and additional charges on top of the original advertised sale. If you think this is not an issue to most buyers, try advertising your next sale with your requirements, see how many people respond. Of course I'm sure that you can rationalize this as, well they probably couldn't legally buy it anyway.

sold two handguns to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and pay for the transfer fee). Sold two high cap military style rifles to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and paying for the transfer fee). So I guess there are people out there willing to pay for the meager $20 transfer fee my FFL charges to complete the sale.....hmm, ain't that somethin'

I suggest you read the following http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Article...d=12&issue=020 to learn about how a firearm trace works, so you can see for yourself that the delusion that you're under is that operating as you do "removes your name from the firearm" it does not nor cannot remove the record of your initial purchase (by an unlicensed owner) of a new firearm. Which would be the first point of call in any BATF firearm trace.

you must live in another country where people do not like to litigate over the smallest of things.....so what you are saying some greedy lawyer will not try to litigate and pin the blame on me as the cause of someone's unfortunate death or injury (if the firearm was used in the commision of a crime or accidental discharge)? You do know that you must respond to any litigation action filed against you. Sorry, I do not have free time like you to muck around with LE and lawyers (and to retain a lawyer if need be) to show that I did a FTF sale within the confines of my state laws.

Ad Hominem, I guess a bunch of folks who wrote the constitution were tin-foil hat wearers too, since they actually structured a legal system in an attempt to minimize government, and at that point there wasn't any real government to speak of, how paranoid was that? Restricting a government that didn't even exist, sheesh those guys must have been completely out of their trees.

Ad Nauseam.....I guess if you really fear the US Govt, you should move to another country. I am sure the men and women who serve in the military, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are a real threat to you. Maybe you would do better in Canada???

If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

Click to expand...

That's me! I've met for a deal before fresh out of the gym so not only was I dressed shady, but I was sweating profusely and looking over my shoulder because I passed an exgirlfriend in the parking lot!

Seriously, trust your instincts. If the guys seems shady to you, back out. Meet in a reasonably public place (back of a parking lot) where people won't run screaming "they've got guns!" yet you won't be cornering yourself into a lonely, isolated area.

I only sell to people with ccw permits or at least a handgun purchase permit (required in my state if not a ccw holder), which I keep.

I don't like out of state deals. I may make more money that way, but my profits get eaten up mostly by time, aggravation and FFL fees. Maybe one day I'll make a friend who is an FFL dealer.

Don't forget to search the buyer/seller ratings here. If the member has dealt with other members, they may have ratings posted.

sernv99 said:

Ad Nauseam.....I guess if you really fear the US Govt, you should move to another country. I am sure the men and women who serve in the military, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are a real threat to you. Maybe you would do better in Canada???

Click to expand...

I think we have a disconnect here as to what I and Gungnir are saying regarding the US Government. The founding fathers realized, and we should remember, that a government controlled by the citizens left to operate with no restraints will become a government that controls it's citizens. If you don't think that is possible in the United States then I would suggest you take a hard look at what happened with the health care bill. I would suggest you look at what has happened in states like New York, New Jersey and California and cities like Chicago and NYC in the area of gun control. If allowed, the government WILL disarm the citizen in a heartbeat, because an armed citizen is the biggest threat to government control.

As far as despising the government, I don't depise the government. However, if you look at the oath that I took, it says that I do solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

That is my first duty, is to the Constitution. My second duty is the second half of the oath - and to obey the orders of the President of the United states. Now.... what if those two statements come into conflict with each other and I cannot fulfill both portions of the oath at the same time? I will fall back on the first statement and defend the Constitution.

Our founding fathers recognized that throughout history, unchecked governments have repeatedly become tyrannies. Our government is no different. My oath is to defend the Constitution which says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That is why I make the statement I will not support giving the government more power to control firearms transactions than what is legally required.

All of my FTF sales have gone without a hitch. Only one was a handgun, but I knew the buyer. I like to have a nice long conversation on the phone prior to meeting them. If I sell a handgun, they have to meet me at an FFL dealer or I won't consider the sale under any circumstance.

sernv99 said:

sold two handguns to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and pay for the transfer fee). Sold two high cap military style rifles to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and paying for the transfer fee). So I guess there are people out there willing to pay for the meager $20 transfer fee my FFL charges to complete the sale.....hmm, ain't that somethin'

Click to expand...

I'm sure you have, did you include your constraints on selling when you advertised those firearms? If not then it proves nothing, only that the inconvenience and additional expense were less of an inconvenience than being a deal breaker. Personally if I had to go to an FFL to get a transfer on a private sale then I'm going direct to an FFL, that way if the firearm is faulty (and not bought as is) I have recourse to that business, and I know that any legal issues (for instance accidentally buying a stolen firearm) falls more on the FFL than on me.

sernv99 said:

you must live in another country where people do not like to litigate over the smallest of things.....so what you are saying some greedy lawyer will not try to litigate and pin the blame on me as the cause of someone's unfortunate death or injury (if the firearm was used in the commision of a crime or accidental discharge)? You do know that you must respond to any litigation action filed against you. Sorry, I do not have free time like you to muck around with LE and lawyers (and to retain a lawyer if need be) to show that I did a FTF sale within the confines of my state laws.

Click to expand...

Maybe I do, one that has a larger degree of freedom than you seem to be used to, or perhaps I have a more Laissez-Faire attitude to life.

I live in Alaska, there is no waiting period for any firearms purchases or restrictions in numbers we can buy except for the restriction of your pocket book, we need no permits to concealed carry (although you can obtain one for carry in reciprocity states) anyone who can legally possess a firearm can conceal carry it, we can easily obtain NFA weapons if we so desire (effectively shall issue on NFA classified weapons from SBS/SBR to Destructive Devices its law that the CLEO complete the certification in a timely manner), carry loaded rifles in our trucks, open carry at our whim. According to state law non-violent felons can own firearms too after they complete their sentence and 10 years have passed (http://www.ktva.com/ci_15353064?source=most_viewed), and manufacture of any firearm (including Fully Automatic) is perfectly legal under state law as long as it's stamped made in Alaska and is not for sale outside of the state (this has yet the be tested, but Montana is also doing the same, so we'll find out about that).

sernv99 said:

Ad Nauseam.....I guess if you really fear the US Govt, you should move to another country. I am sure the men and women who serve in the military, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are a real threat to you. Maybe you would do better in Canada???

Click to expand...

Do not mistake patriotism with nationalism, they're entirely different things. I do not fear the Military in any way, I know a large number of them both currently active and retired and surprisingly they all seem to share very similar political views to me, including views on the Federal Government.

As Thomas Paine said "That Government is best that governs least" I happen to agree with that statement. I would hardly call belief that following the constitution is despising the Federal Government (even if the Federal Government may be exceeding powers delegated in the constitution). However much like any dog every now and again a government needs to be brought to heel and remember who its master is, otherwise it can mistakenly believe that it's its own master, this is not good in a dog, and can be very dangerous in a government.

I think it’s been said throughout the thread, that you really just need to use good sense about your sales or trades.
Try to simplify matters by thinking that you’re selling you firearm in a garage sale, it’s nothing more than a personal asset that you are wishing to sell. If there is a reasonable buyer and you two agree on terms- sell.
Face to face deals are some of the best deals out there. Know your local laws and handle yourself accordingly.