Looking for actual events where handgun wasn't enough.

Status
Not open for further replies.
every once in a while

someone really regrets only having a handgun when they rile some critter. bears come to mind
 
Glamdring said:
So if anyone has any data, not opinion I would like to see it.
Click to expand...


You're looking for factual data on a "what if" situation.

Unless you have controlled experiments played out exactly the same each time, you will never factually win this debate.
 
Depends on your definition of "enough". Any intruder that has the ability to flee also has the ability to fight.

There are many cases where home/store invaders escape after being shot with handguns and long guns. That is not a failure caused by the type of firearm it's a failure of shot placement and determination. Self-defense stories abound with such evidence.
 
Posted by Ryder: There are many cases where home/store invaders escape after being shot with handguns and long guns. That is not a failure caused by the type of firearm it's a failure of shot placement and determination. Self-defense stories abound with such evidence.
Click to expand...
Actually, such incidents do not represent "failures" by any definition.

If the invaders leave, the actions of the defenders have been successful.

A defender is justified in defending himself or herself, and no more.
 
I'm puzzled by everyone that says there is no way to find an answer, or even part of an answer. Or at least figure out a better question. I know at least in my state when LEO get involved in aftermath of a gunfight there is a lot of investigation into what happened.

There is a lot of data for officer survival that shows that using or not using cover can determine if you live or die in a gunfight. There is also evidence to show that a backup gun is a very good idea. That is stuff that wasn't well known or believed just a few, or maybe it is several now, decades ago.

Fact is there are cases were back up gun made difference between surviving and not, since that is true I don't see why there shouldn't be data to address my question out there. Might be very hard to find, but a long way from impossible.

Kleanbore: I am trying to find out, or at least get a hint, if long gun is a win or lose difference like BUG can be. Or is it like having a full size spare tire vs a doughnut? The full size tire well let you get home like normal, but you will have to go slower and use more care with the doughnut.

I know it is at least like the tire comparison. I suspect the wanting long gun comes from the reality of how long it takes to stop someone with gunfire at times, no matter what caliber. Consistent factor of everyone I have interviewed that has been in a gunfight, was how they hit bad guy and nothing seemed to happen. Many of them tended towards 44 mags for CCW handguns whenever they could after surviving fight.

Course people that I know that survived home invasions/burglary tended towards stronger measures also. I think it is a more a question of feeling safer, and learning bad things can happen to individual.
 
To be VERY clear: Success is defined as stopping criminals attempt to kill or cause grave bodily harm.
 
I have worked in the past, armed for my Son's Security Company.

If he ever gets escort runs, he and I do them, we follow in a large SUV, us in the front seats, pump shotguns, slug loaded in the foot area behind us.

The State forbid Rifles, the bullets go to far? Mainly the people who run these positions, make these decisions, have no real life experience with body guard/or the knowledge of what can go wrong in a heart beat.

And basically are not interested in the well being of the Security Officer, who works in high risk positions.

NOTHING HAPPENED YET!

Is the mind set!

South Florida Criminals are more in to AK 47s than chrome .32 pistols!

I for one would like to be behind a Styer AUG 1.5 scope, with thirty rounds up, than a five 12 gage pump loaded shotgun. When the distinctive crack of an AK started up. Do I like rifles... Yes and yes!
 
If I'm not mistaken, Glamdring, you're basically saying it would be great if there were a compendium of all the self-defense shooting reports from all 50 states for the last, oh, 30 years (or whatever) that you could then do statistical review of to break down incidents by category, including situations in which the attempt at self defense was unsuccessful. And with those incidents you could perhaps analyze whether a long gun might reasonably have been a more successful weapon to use.

Practically speaking, however, that dog ain't gonna hunt.

So we are left with the art of the possible. Can you actually keep a long gun within reach all the time in your home (never mind concealed carry, that's not relevant. By definition you can't carry a rifle so it doesn't matter whether it would have been better or not.) Some folks might. I can't quite imagine it, myself. Unless you count the flintlock replica up on the mantlepiece, but as it's not loaded....

We have my husband's 12 gauge loaded in our closet. One or both of us have handguns available when we're not in bed, and even then, my handgun is on my bedside table. My handgun, as has been said many times before, exists so that we can fight our way to the shotgun. I could, I suppose, have my AR next to the bed. For that matter, I could have IT over the mantlepiece and a mag on top of the fireplace ready to go. But there's a limit to how much of an armed camp I want to live in, not to mention how I want visitors to feel when they walk in.

Self defense, like politics, is the art of the possible. You do the best you can.

Jan
 
You're the weapon, the thing in your hand is just the tool:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/legends/rjthomas.htm

A Navy SEAL Team was returning from a mission over North Vietnam in a chopper when it got hit pretty bad. The pilot and one crew member were killed and the copilot was wounded. Going into autorotation, the copilot managed to set the chopper down in a clearing. After landing, a few rounds of enemy fire were starting to come in. Seems the M60s were also damaged beyond use by the crash landing and initial RPG hit, the only M16 fell out on the way down.

The only firearms left was M1911s.The remaining crew member was carrying a match conditioned M1911 and had a few boxes of ammo. As more enemy small arms fire started coming in, the copilot and crew member also noted that the VC were coming out of the jungle and approaching them; shooting as they came. The crew member took out his .45 and took careful aim as he shot at each attacking VC. About 30 minutes later it was all over. Between reloading magazines and radioing for rescue, the copilot was pretty busy, but a rescue chopper finally arrived on the scene.

As the rescue chopper came in and landed, its crew noticed a lot of dead VC laying around. The downed helo’s remaining crew were picked up and on their way out, they counted the dead VC; 37 in all. Their distances from the downed helo were from 3 to about 150 yards; all shot by the crew member with his M1911 .45 ACP. About 80 rounds were fired by Petty Officer R.J. Thomas, a member of the USN Rifle and Pistol Team.

Petty Officer Thomas was recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor, but by the time the recommendation got all the way up through the chain of command, the recognition was reduced to the Navy Cross.

This incident has been cited this as the only known of example of top-level combat marksmanship since SGT Alvin York’s escapades in WWI.

Submitted by Mark Eberhard-CEO & President
LtCol. USMCR (Ret.)

(no, this isn't a 1911 rah-rah, its a if you can run it, it'll do rah-rah)
 
(no, this isn't a 1911 rah-rah, its a if you can run it, it'll do rah-rah)
Click to expand...
I think it is a 1911 rah-rah story because of how it is portrayed as the centerpiece of the defense of the downed craft and crew when it was only a very small part of the story. All was the VC were not just shot with the 1911 as claimed, but it sure makes the story sound good.

KellyTTE, that is a nice story, but it is embellished and inaccurate. What you have reproduced is basically internet folklore. Given the embellishments and inaccuracies, it is tough to believe any specific details. The official story, though lacking in some details, is in the link provided below. http://www.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=4448

The story gives the impression that Thomas single-handedly held off the VC until being rescued by another helicopter. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thomas did an excellent job, but he wasn't alone, far from it. He had help on the ground from another soldier dropped in by another helicopter and other helicopters were providing help from above with strafing, rockets, etc.. Thomas did apparently shoot a .45 very well, but it wasn't his gun, but the gun of the pilot, Dick Barr, who was reported dead in the version of the story you provided, but in fact was rescued and was one of the folks who attested to Thomas' skill. The copilot was killed in the crash, not the pilot.

http://www.seawolf.org/stories/det3battles.asp
http://www.sealtwo.org/photoalbum.htm

It is interesting that it was stated in the story that it was a match 1911 reloaded from boxes of ammo. Since it was the pilot's, I would assume he must have been the one carrying the extra boxes.

No doubt there were a lot of VC laying around when the rescue chopper finally got the guys off the ground. It was an intense firefight, but the VC on the ground were not all Thomas' doing. In fact, he is just credited with just more than one kill. He apparently hit many as indicated by Barr, but it is unknown really just how many he killed.

It is these sorts of incongruencies are what indicate the story is folklorish and as such cannot be trusted for specific details.

This incident has been cited this as the only known of example of top-level combat marksmanship since SGT Alvin York’s escapades in WWI.
Click to expand...

Gotta love these sorts of statements. It makes the big claim to give more importance to the story, but has absolutely no justification provided. Exactly who cites this story as the only known exactly of top-level combat marksmanship since Sgt. York in WWI?

Another version with quotes from Thomas.
http://www.navyseals.com/?q=three-fallon-veterans-exemplify-duty-honor-commitment-country

In this account, he killed as many as 10 men.
 
Many years ago a guy I worked with was shot with a handgun in an altercation in a bar. The BG shot my co-worker in the forehead at close range with a .25. The bullet broke the skin and burrowed along the guy's skull, didn't penetrate the skull and exited near the back of his head.

Co-worker didn't go down and actually helped subdue the shooter. He was off work about two weeks. Said he had a bad headache and his head was swollen. Went to emergency and had the wound cleaned, dressed. Got antibiotics. That was it.

At the time of the shooting the co-worker had a few drinks in him, maybe a little something else - but wasn't drunk or stoned. Physically, the guy was stout - 5' 9" or so, maybe 225, mentally he was tough and a guy one wouldn't fool with.

Anecdotal and long ago. No details on the make of .25 or ammo used.
 
i sometimes wrestle with a similar dilemma, trying to decide between a full size auto that is heavy and hard to conceal but has a high magazine capacity, or a j frame that is easily hidden but only affords 5 rounds. the trade off is a keltec my brother bought me, 11 rounds of 9mm easily concealed iwb.
 
Dear THR,

I have increased my pistol practice routine over the past two years, and improved, but in doing so have become used to how difficult it is to hit targets quickly with a pistol.

Recently my daughters and I shot a few rounds of 20 gauge slugs and buckshot at a silhouette target, and I was amazed at how easy it was to hit quickly. Not a single slug or pellet missed the target. The distance, 20 yards or so, was very short for a long arm, but pretty long for pistols. And a full ounce of lead at 1200 fps or so is quite a wallop.

As a result, I'm starting to keep a shotgun handy at home in addition to whatever pistol is on me. I realized that if push ever comes to shove, I want to be pointing a shotgun rather than any pistol if at all possible.

LBS
 
Low Budget Shooter said:
Dear THR,

I have increased my pistol practice routine over the past two years, and improved, but in doing so have become used to how difficult it is to hit targets quickly with a pistol.

Recently my daughters and I shot a few rounds of 20 gauge slugs and buckshot at a silhouette target, and I was amazed at how easy it was to hit quickly. Not a single slug or pellet missed the target. The distance, 20 yards or so, was very short for a long arm, but pretty long for pistols. And a full ounce of lead at 1200 fps or so is quite a wallop.

As a result, I'm starting to keep a shotgun handy at home in addition to whatever pistol is on me. I realized that if push ever comes to shove, I want to be pointing a shotgun rather than any pistol if at all possible.

LBS
Click to expand...
Good job! Your on the path. I wish more people would do what you have done. I'll also note the more your learn the more you realize you don't know.

You might want to look up SouthNarc's stuff on ECQB [Extreme Close Quarters Battle] he has some VERY good DVD's.

Also Ralph Mroz's "Defensive Shooting for Real-Life Encounters".
 
springmom said:
If I'm not mistaken, Glamdring, you're basically saying it would be great if there were a compendium of all the self-defense shooting reports from all 50 states for the last, oh, 30 years (or whatever) that you could then do statistical review of to break down incidents by category, including situations in which the attempt at self defense was unsuccessful. And with those incidents you could perhaps analyze whether a long gun might reasonably have been a more successful weapon to use.

Practically speaking, however, that dog ain't gonna hunt.

So we are left with the art of the possible. Can you actually keep a long gun within reach all the time in your home (never mind concealed carry, that's not relevant. By definition you can't carry a rifle so it doesn't matter whether it would have been better or not.) Some folks might. I can't quite imagine it, myself. Unless you count the flintlock replica up on the mantlepiece, but as it's not loaded....

We have my husband's 12 gauge loaded in our closet. One or both of us have handguns available when we're not in bed, and even then, my handgun is on my bedside table. My handgun, as has been said many times before, exists so that we can fight our way to the shotgun. I could, I suppose, have my AR next to the bed. For that matter, I could have IT over the mantlepiece and a mag on top of the fireplace ready to go. But there's a limit to how much of an armed camp I want to live in, not to mention how I want visitors to feel when they walk in.

Self defense, like politics, is the art of the possible. You do the best you can.

Jan
Click to expand...
Sounds like you are well prepared.

I may someday get a research grant to do what your suggesting, I think it is a great idea. Did you know they already do that for Police Officers killed? See UCR [Unified Crime Report] http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

But what I am actually doing, since I have only been working on this question/problem for several weeks, is trying to find out if anyone else has already looked at this. Trying to save duplication of effort among other things. This is a small part of what I consider preliminary research.

When I was in college I spent a lot of hours in the Law Library studying the UCR.

Now there are a lot of problems with the Officer Killed Summary from the UCR, for one it is what happened when officer lost. I like the study done by the Police Marksman Association in 1993, they were trying to find what happened when officer won!

Problem is that study isn't an ongoing thing AFAIK. Only thing similar that is ongoing is NYPD's SOP 9
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

I am working towards stuff like that for non LEO. It has been done in the past, for LEO, so it certainly IS possible. It will take time, effort, and money. I'm aware of that. Have done research on related things in the past.

This is part of my early wide sweeping net, trying to get a lot of information. That will get sorted and explored. So I can get an idea of how & where to get more specific information.

Aside from forums I don't know of any large audience I can get access to for little money. I may well write an article for a magazine eventually. That is how the Police Marksman study was done, via form in their Trade magazine/Journal.
 
Last edited:
Cosmoline said:
It's certainly true that training and practice are universally a good idea. But with a single afternoon of basic instruction, a firearm newb can be nailing small cans at 50 yards with a rifle and doing some pretty fair shotgunning as well. In contrast, it takes a long, long time to get competent with a handgun. The platform is just much more difficult to control and aim accurately. When you compound the problems with 3 AM eyesight, bad lighting, moving targets and someone shooting back at you the short gun gets even more difficult to use.
Click to expand...
I've been thinking about your post a LOT. If you had them shoot at 6 or 12 feet would there be any difference for hits with the handgun vs long gun?

I think part of what is going on is most of the people here are looking at the problem as gun people. That means you look at the whole issue from perspective of a shooter.

Have you read Ralph Mroz's "Defensive Shooting for Real-Life Encounters"? The section he called "Lead-Colored Lens" page 8 in my copy.

He talks about how when shooting 5 yards is considered close, but in an actual self defense situation that is a long shot. I know you know the stats for gunfight range. If a shooter can engage bad guy past 6 or 7 yards they will have good chance of winning.

Problem is what Clint calls the Hole or SouthNarc calls the FUT. Whole snarl of issues there IMHO. High skill stuff IMO. You need reflexive weapon retention skills and that only comes from hands on experience.

Shotgun or long gun does make shooting side of the problem easier. But how do you deal with the attack at 5 feet with shotgun? For home defense there are things you can do. But they involve things, like planning a defense, that most people never do.

That link John posted http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...36#post4158036
is a good example of that I think.

The guy seemed to have high degree of skill with his shotgun IMHO, he used light on and off and movement!!! I don't think I could do that in his shoes.

But if he had set up cover, like Mas teaches for home defense, he and his family could have stayed safe behind cover and used gunfire and lighting to cover choke point from behind cover.

He did have a plan, but he never considered bad guys shooting through walls perhaps. Or didn't realize the walls were only concealment.
 
A rifle is ideal for an ambush, because you know what you are going to shoot, and when.

An accurate hi-cap 9mm, is more use for fighting. You have it all the time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
Long Gun or Handgun for Home Defense?
2
Replies
37
Views
1K
CZ52GUY
C
S
  • Locked
Home defense gun for my teenage daughter...
2 3
Replies
61
Views
1K
TonyDedo
T
H
  • Locked
Where To Find Training Classes?
Replies
11
Views
493
HGM22
H
V
  • Locked
Defensive Training Availability
Replies
12
Views
475
possum
P
S
  • Locked
Defensive Edge Handgun-1 Course MN Special Rate $50
Replies
2
Views
527
billsnogo
B
Back
Top