Why Yell A "STOP" Or Warning?

You warn not so much for the benefit of the perp but for the witnesses that heard you issue the warning ('cause once you start launching bullets down range, you'll want to make sure you have plenty of witnesses, if available, on your side). Shouting a warning or command does not take any more time; it does indicate your state of mind ("I'm perceiving danger") and that you are reacting to it in an appropriate manner.
Further, if you do pull the trigger, expect to spend time in court--not just criminal court, but civil court, 'cause bad guy's family will sue. Another great reason you want as many witnesses as possible on your side...

+ 1 cosmo

Hello friends and neighbors // Good points to ponder, thanks for this thread and the different view points.

I for one can not see myself yelling stop "AS" I shoot and have never been taught this.
I understand the CYA mentality but that is not my way of living.
Just imagine that being brought out in video anyway.

Question:
When we have an obligation to retreat, do we as citizens have the RIGHT to issue commands and expect them to be obeyed ?

On instinct, without any training whatever, the closest I have ever come to drawing, was to raise my left hand palm out and vertical, while saying, clearly, "No", as my right hand was on my CCW.

The few times I have had to do this, the person did stop in their tracks, pause a moment, and then turned and quickly left the scene.

I had the luxury I suppose ( five to ten feet ), of enough distance to do that.

If the person had been upon me, I would have not had any such luxury of time and distance.

Actually, one time of this, there were two people who were trying to force their way into my Home, and, when I did my 'No', one of them understood it perfectly, while his pardner became beligerent and aggressive and it ended up his accomplice/friend was holding him back, since he wanted to attack me for my suggesting as I had, that I was armed and willing to use force to defend my self and my home.

The sensible pardner prevailed...but, had he not managed to hold his friend back, I would have followed through with no further discourse or admonishion.

It all depends on circumstance...what one will say, or, what one has time to say to someone who is insisting to get shot.

Certainly, in a public situation where there are bystanders, one would do well to speak loudly and to say things which for the re-telling of wittnesses will later support the ledgidimacy of one's position, such as "Stop! Drop the Weapon!" etc, even if it may seem melodramatic or superfluous or absurd in thinking about it now.

"Stop!" Drop the Wep - BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM!!!"

Definitely does have a better ring to satisfy interested parties, who may solicit the retelling later by impartial others, than, merely, that by-standers should recall only, suddeny, "BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM!!!"

Depending upon the situation, If I had time/presence of mind to issue a command, *before* shooting, that might end the threat and bring the attention of others to my plight I would.

I agree giving a Stop, Drop the Weapon command ...would get the attention of everyone in the area and this would be benifical to all, including me.
I would not however expect the aggressor to follow those commands and would be prepared for the worse.

Living on the SC/NC border I try to train for the lowest common denominator between the two states.

If/when the threat has ended, I do not think it is my right to stop the person from simply walking away. At that point I again become a witness.

Once again thanks for the thread, good food for thought.

**I'm just a guy the State of S.C. thinks is responsible enough to carry a gun, trying to live up to that responsibility.

Makes more sense to yell "Help Help! Call the police!" repeatedly, before and after one shoots.

I was taught to yell "I'm afraid of you" if there is time before responding. If there are witnesses not paying much attention, at least they'll hear that you were afraid of the person you shot.

Exact verbiage doesn't really matter -- the issue is to establish to anyone who might be a witness that you made an effort to de-escalate the encounter verbally before you resorted to deadly force. This might end the encounter with deadly force being used, which is an optimal outcome for defensive handgun use and not shooting someone in the first place precludes any of the potential legal nightmares that can come from even a good shooting. Second, in a worst case scenario, it is prepping the battlefield and arming your lawyer. Don't be the guy who wins the battle and then loses the war and ends up signing over your kids' college funds to the next of kin for some methed out mugger after a jury found his crying mother more compelling than your testimony.

I don't know if you to give a warning but they teach it here.

During another exercise, the target moved toward the student. Students were told to call out a warning.

"Stop! I have a handgun. I've called the police," each student called out.

When the targets continued, Deal's students fired.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/11/18/taking-aim-at-safety.html

The central problem of our age is how to act decisively in the absence of certainty. - Bertrand Russell

I find it interesting that there are folks who will take the time to yell STOP or some complete sentence, may even do so while performing some other task like drawing their own gun (so as to save time by multitasking), but won't use a laser because it will give away their tactical advantage.

BS....

A good shoot is a good shoot. With or without conversation.

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I dissagree. I remember Massad Ayoob saying that he knows of a few guys who have gone to jail for a clean shoot because they said the wrong things afterwards.

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A good shoot is a good shoot if the information can be seen as such. Saying something stupid after the fact to indicate that you shot for reasons other than self defense would indicate that the good shoot wasn't actually a good shoot. In effect, you became a poor witness and a witness against yourself and if you are the only witness, then the problem wasn't with the shoot, but with the witness statement.

I never understood how people determine a person convicted of a bad shoot were wrongly convicted unless the case got overturned.

Aside from possible helping from a legal standpoint, if there is a chance that giving a command will convince an assailant to end his attack without me having to shoot him/her, I would enjoy being able to go another day being able to say that I haven't had to kill anyone.

Now, in a self defense application, I don't see many situations where one will have time to give a command and wait to see whether the aggressor will comply or not. Typically in a SD scenario, a life is in immediate danger, and waiting for someone to comply can mean an innocent will die

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=574891

Interesting case, happened in Philadelphia
Even though the defendant repeated asked and told the attackers to leave them alone and to stop, the cops still found witnesses to refute what was said,

Lets not get sidetracked by the Phili cops (yeah, I agree in the same league as Chicago PD..) but, it's not a panacea.

The class I was in taught it to legally establish that you felt a threat to your life.

"You're scaring me, back off!" - "Bang! Bang! Bang!" sounds better in a witness statement to people who probably have no understanding of the legality (the jury) behind a shooting and it also reminds *you* to put to the forefront that you were scared for your life because of a threat he posed, and not just peeved that the guy dares set foot in your house because he was a poor lost soul and just lost in the bottle, as he is because his girlfriend left him.

At least that's the rationale we were taught.

I don't believe a warning shout is a good idea for CCW permit holders. We can't draw until the situation warrants lethal force.

I keep in mind that guy in Miami who was paralyzed when a bad guy responded to his commands by opening fire.

As a non-LEO, I've trained with a local police department for many years. We all yell "Drop the weapon!" or other commands before firing.

But, LEO will have other LEO on-site with weapons drawn, all wearing vests.

You want to know how incredibly incompetent some prosecutors are?

Many moons ago I was trolling a neighborhood in response to a general ATL call about a man with a long gun who discharged it in a tavern. I spotted him, he matched the on air description to a T, walking down the sidewalk with the long gun and I stopped and exited the cruiser using it as a shield and ordered him to stop and drop the gun. He did a double take and jogged up a driveway between two houses. I moved toward one house, keeping it between he and I though I could still see a part of him. I had noted a tall fence at the
end of the drive. I dropped prone on the ground against the foundation of the house and rapidly sighted in on him around the corner. He had turned and had the long gun pointed in my direction but higher up as if he expected me to walk around the corner of the house. I yelled drop it and began to squeeze the trigger, but he raised his hands and the gun and threw it over the fence. Of course telling this takes much longer than the time it took to occur...seconds was all.

Now for the prosecutor. I had arrested the guy for attempted felonious assault on a police officer, other charges were made by detectives for the original crime. A few days later, the prosecutor approached me in the hallway at Police HQ and District Court. He told me he was dismissing the attempted felonious assault because I had a police uniform on and that uniform was inherently coercive when I ordered him to drop the weapon and to halt. I remember nearly being speechless at the time. I asked him what in the hell would he do if I had shot the guy. He told me I would have been in big trouble. He dismissed or modified all the charges except careless use of a firearm and which the guy plead to and was given time served. About 2 weeks. This was about the time of Miranda et al being big news and this young moron prosecutor was overreacting to what was going on at the time.
A year or two later, one of my fellow officers shot and killed a burglar who pointed a handgun at him. This same prosecutor was considering charges against that officer because the guy had several more holes in him than the three shots Tom fired. It took the the ME who did the postmortem to convince this man how those extra holes happened to occur. He had fallen backwards while being rapidly shot with Tom's .357 magnum. One in the chest with an exit wound, another in the thigh that exited and then reentered the torso and another that entered the leg, exited and reentered the torso.

My point is that you never know what a prosecutor will or won't do. Protecting one's self or family is about more than just carrying a weapon. Circumstances may not always be helpful in the end and self defense may be much more complicated when being argued over later. In my view, a hazardous situation is a situation that one should pray that one never, ever has to contend with. Training and thinking about things are very useful and we, at the end of the day, hope that what we do is right if the time ever comes.

by yelling commands while beating the hell out of the perp resisting like your under arrest, stop resisting me,stop resisting me is for the witnesses.witbesses will always remember you shouting commands to the perp.you can then say you were asking him to stop resisting.this way when it gets to court,if it does,you were issueing commands to ceast and desist,and perp refused to comply

dprice,
As a non law enforcement officer I am quite sure I don't have the right to command another citizen to "stop resisting me." He has no obligation to listen to you either. If his "resisting" is not imposing an immediate threat to you life, leave. Quickly. If it is, leave. Quickly. If you are unable to leave, do what you have to do.

If I saw a common citizen, with a gun, fighting another guy and commanding him to "stop resisting" I would probably side with the resisting guy. As one who lawfully conceals a deadly weapon, I can never see how commanding people to do what you want with that weapon can be a good thing. I carry a weapon to protect myself and others from harm, not to boss people around.

To the original post, I would think that in a shooting situation I would attempt to shout a command as instict. Whether that would be as I drew or as I shot or what, only the circumstances could dictate that, but as I said I would probably be shouting something.

I don't think that shouting would have a negative tactical affect on a concealed weapons permit holder simply because a concealed weapon permit holder only becomes a shooter when a threat to life is immenent. If that guy isn't presenting a threat to you, why would you shout, and what advantage would you lose?

I'm not expert, just a guy.

Z

For me, the magic number is $20,000 - the typical cost of litigating a self-defense shooting. That's the average. For a totally righteous shoot, $0. For a questionable one? Much higher than $20K.

So chances are, if you shoot somebody, you're gonna need a lawyer and they don't come cheap.

By the same token, it's why I don't like "stealth" guns in all-black (hi, Glock people). My preference is for chrome for the obvious intimidation value. Anything that helps you avoid actually having to shoot is a plus.

I do not train for verbal commands. Seems like a good idea, but I don't do it. Still, if I draw and there is opportunity, of course I'll yell something like "drop it!" or similar, on the hope that maybe I won't have to shoot and get all entangled in the legal mess that usually follows a shooting.

I don't know where some of you guys are getting this stuff about being obligated to issue a verbal warning. Sounds like you've been watching too much TV. There is no such law in my state. LEO's may have to do that because of department policy, but not a civilian in a self-defense shooting.

Even the much quoted Mas Ayoob explains in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" (page 58, 59, and 60) the reasons why you would not give a verbal warning.

If the attacker has a deadly weapon visible, shows intent to use it, and has the immediate ability to, you are justified to shoot and keep shooting until he is no longer a threat. No discussion is required.

If your justification is solid, there is no need for you to depend upon witnesses to testify as to what they heard you say before the shooting started. it doesn't matter.

There is a difference between a loud sharp command to stop and the equivalent of "not the face, not the face". But you may gain a brief moment of hesitation from a command to stop as he goes through a fight or flight decision loop as he considers if he has just made a mistake. And yes, you may not either but I can yell as I draw. I can yell as I retreat and draw at the same time as well.

Interesting people's thoughts on this. Having been an LEO and then a LEO Instructor in DT, Firearms and Officer Survival, it is the state's attorneys that have through case study provided us with the means, verbally, to CYA.

When we first approach a person, our mere uniformed presence is on the Force Continuum. Next is speech, spray, baton and eventually, deadly force. Speech is always used throughout the different steps, as we make bystanders "our" witnesses, who can testify for us in court, that I ordered the suspect to drop that knife, etc.

Always use speech, it may save your backside one day.

If the attacker has a deadly weapon visible, shows intent to use it, and has the immediate ability to, you are justified to shoot and keep shooting until he is no longer a threat. No discussion is required.

If your justification is solid, there is no need for you to depend upon witnesses to testify as to what they heard you say before the shooting started. it doesn't matter.

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And bad things never happen to good people because the world works in a basically right, good, and just way.

There's any number of quirks where "good shooter" and "defendant" can be synonyms. And even if you dodge criminal prosecution, there's any number of ways you can be help civilly liable for using deadly force against another person that kills them or causes life altering injuries. A jury will love the counterpoint his crying momma recounting how her basically good boy made a few mistakes once he got hooked on those drugs gets from your "I didn't have to warn him, so I just shot him" testimony . . .

I am at the jewelry store where I work right now.

We have cameras.

Those cameras can get me in trouble, or they can clear me from trouble depending on my actions.

Act as if you have a room full of witnesses watching you.

Why Yell A "STOP" Or Warning?

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Because I believe that it may allow me--when it can be safely done--to exit a deadly force situation without having to kill someone, or being killed myself.

How 'bout starting a new thread, "Why try to run away?"