Quantcast

If you feel the need to confront a trespasser on your property do it from behind cover

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Jeff White, Oct 21, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    In Jefferson County Missouri, just South of St Louis there are two groups doing vehicle burglaries. A homeowner was alerted by his alarm system, armed himself and confronted the burglar.

    https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...cle_c605f8be-8548-5291-98ca-c4b8660f086a.html

    If you are going to confront a trespasser, do it from behind cover. Cover means something that will stop a bullet. It’s a good idea to figure out where cover is and plan to go there. Maybe even practice it.

    There is video of the confrontation at the link. I watched the video on the local news a few minutes ago and my first thought was; “Why is he standing out in the open yelling commands at the guy?”

    I’m glad he’s alive today too. Cover is a no brainer for me with 40 years of combined military and LE experience, but it’s not something the average person is going to think about.

    This situation might have been a good opportunity to use a very bright light in the suspects eyes before issuing a command.

    And then there is always the option to observe and report. No need to confront the suspect at all.....

    But if you feel you must, have a plan. Don’t just run out point your gun and yell at the suspect.
     
  2. edwardware

    edwardware Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,768
    Less bluster, more planning for return fire.

    It would seem that Homeowner assumed his bluster would work, and never thought beyond that.
     
  3. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Well how many times do people say “the mere presence of a gun is usually enough to make the bad guy run away”? It even gets posted here and often it’s correct. But you have to be prepared for what can happen if the presence of an armed good guy doesn’t impress the bad guy.
     
    JeffG, sparkyv, Corpral_Agarn and 3 others like this.
  4. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,500
    Location:
    GA
    They've caught several crews doing that around where I live. The major thing they were looking for were firearms, cash/credit/gas cards, and any expensive designer sunglasses etc. Increasingly the subdivisions in my neck of the woods are getting together and buying license plate cameras at entrance/exit of the subdivisions and a Ring doorbell camera ended up breaking the case on one couple of these thieves.

    The yutes came from the inner city and were doing their thing about 2-4 in the morning--in and out in about 3-5 minutes per car.
     
    JeffG, Thibaut and Slamfire like this.
  5. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,089
    Location:
    Mechanicsville, VA
    Wrong on so many levels.
     
    JeffG and DocRock like this.
  6. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    10,036
    Location:
    Alabama
    That's what they do in every Spaghetti Western and Cop show, right? And it is from these shows that we all get our combat training, right?

    DhOCZvo.jpg

    Did the home owner call the other guy "You Dirty Dog" and demand "you better slap leather!"? According to the combat protocols, you are supposed to engage with wry banter and give a warning before pulling your weapon.
     
    Duster340, boom boom, <*(((>< and 3 others like this.
  7. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    7,815
    Location:
    Middle Tn
    I’m betting that if they track who watches that video over and over and over then they can find the perp. Seems like theres a good chance he is showing off to his buddies how somebody got the drop on him and he still was able to “pop a few off and get gone”
     
    JeffG and Thibaut like this.
  8. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    The homeowner was just interviewed on the local news. No video of the interview on their website yet. He said he was a Concealed Carry holder and there would be “something bigger” next to the bed from now on.

    It wasn’t his choice of weapon that was the problem. It was his poor tactics. When the suspect ran when he confronted him, the homeowner ran after him. It was only a few steps but that was a pretty dumb move.

    He seemed intent on capturing the guy. Not his job. I wonder what he would have done if the suspect followed his command. I wonder if he knew what he would have done.

    Confront the suspect from behind cover.

    Light the suspect up with the brightest light you have. You can use the light to keep the suspect from pinpointing your exact location.

    If the suspect runs off, let him. It’s not your job to hold him for the police.

    Don’t leave your cover even if the suspect complies with your commands. Let the police handle it from there.
     
  9. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    I have never once done that and not had it IMMEDIATELY escalate the situation.

    I've also never once run into a criminal who was the least bit intimidated by the fact that I was armed. I see no point in playing Billy Badass with a criminal.

    At work I'm required to approach the potential tresspasser, identify myself, request that they leave and inform them that I'm going to call the cops before I do.

    At home I wouldn't have gone out side and I certainly wouldn't have wasted any time telling the guy I was calling the cops. I'd have called the cops and stayed inside or MAYBE hit the panic button on my car alarm.

    ETA: I was originally going to say I'd yell out the window but as I mentioned I find that warning people you're going to call the cops is generally a waste of time. I just call them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    JeffG and bersaguy like this.
  10. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    I used light very effectively on vehicle stops. I always hit the rear view mirror with my spotlight to light up the interior of the vehicle and disorient the occupants while I approached.
     
    JeffG likes this.
  11. labnoti

    labnoti Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,256
    “You picked the wrong (expletive) house, my man!” Logan yells in the video while pointing his gun at the man. “I suggest you get on the (expletive) ground.”

    I started a thread a little while ago about commands or exclamations appropriate for the civilian self-defender. I don't think these are good ones.
     
  12. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    You're a cop you have the authority of the State backing you up, you also have back up. Most of the rest of us don't. Most of us don't even have the authority to stop someone. I can't even "stop" someone at work.

    If I rolled up on a suspicious person at work and turned on my spots I'd get "F-OFF!!!!!!" as they drove away.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    JeffG likes this.
  13. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    I don’t see how that makes light ineffective or unusable for a private citizen. In my experience people either froze or ran when lit up. I don’t see how that’s different for a private citizen.
     
    JeffG likes this.
  14. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    In my experience they tell me to "Get that F-ing light out of my face MOTHER F-KER!!!!!!!!!! Who the F-K do you think you are a F-Ing COP?!?!?!?!?"

    I've also seen instances in which private security approached a tresspasser and asked them to leave property and got killed.

    Do you think that guy would have popped off at you if you'd walked out that door in full uniform?

    You've heard of "White Privelege"? You have (for lack of a better term) "Cop Privelege"
     
    JeffG likes this.
  15. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Here’s my take on “cop privilege”. Criminals are more afraid of armed private citizens then they are cops and security guards. If they’ve been in the system they know the police have rules they have to follow. Unfortunately for the people working in private security they also know that most employers don’t allow private security to do anything more then “show the flag” to avoid lawsuits. I don’t know hat the law is where you work but in Illinois and Missouri security officers are licensed and have the power to arrest and detain. However no employer I am aware of around here permits their security officers to do those activities. The criminals know that and I’m sure that’s why you get the response you do.

    Working LE in a rural area and having taken people into custody who were held by an armed property owner, the criminal viewed my arrival as a rescue because he knew I most likely wouldn’t shoot him, but he had no such certainty about the angry farmer with the 12 gauge.
     
    Keith G, sequins, Stevie-Ray and 4 others like this.
  16. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    My whole point is that there are things that you can do as a cop that wouldn't work for a civilian.

    The same applies for your experience as a senior NCO. When I got promoted to PFC my section sergeant decided he didn't think I deserved it so right after formation he ordered me to take the stripe off and told me that my pay increase from E2 to E3 was going to go in a special bank account until he decided I earned it.

    Up to that point he was dead wrong but I took off my stripe and as I handed to him I said "I don't give a F anyway." All of a sudden it wasn't me V. Him, it was me V the UCMJ, it was me V. The Department of the Army, it was me V. The NCO Corp. It wasn't even about what I said. It was because I had been disrespectful to a Non Commissioned Officer.

    If a criminal ignores me so what but if he ignores you he's resisting arrest or disobeying a lawful command.

    Again there's things you can get away with that a civilian can't

    That's the point I'm trying to make. If you want to delete this post so it doesn't take the thread off track I have no objection.
     
    JeffG likes this.
  17. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Brother I’m sorry you had a jerk for a section sergeant. Just like there are cops who shouldn’t have a badge there are NCOs who shouldn’t have the stripes.

    Back on topic as I said in my earlier post, criminals fear getting shot by an armed citizen more then they fear getting shot by a cop or security guard. I think I’m the case we are discussing, a vehicle burglary, the criminal would be more likely to run off when hit with a bright light then attack and the effect the light has on his vision gives the homeowner a little more advantage. If you look at the video you’ll see the homeowner took a few steps to pursue the criminal when he ran away from the car. We will probably never know but I don’t think the burglar would have fired if the homeowner had held his position even as exposed as it was.
     
    JeffG likes this.
  18. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,022
    Location:
    Southwestern Illinois
    If somebody were to shine a bright light on you and you're armed, wouldn't your first reaction be to shoot at that light?
     
  19. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,256
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    I supposed you'd shoot at the parachute flares on a night op, too.

    No, you get out of the light by getting behind cover. And if the one deploying the light, it's best to do from behind cover.
     
    Growlers likes this.
  20. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Think about the situation. It’s after 1 am, you and your crew are going through the neighborhood looking fo unlocked cars to steal from. Suddenly the floodlights come on and someone tells you to stop. Are you really going to open up on the lights? You’ve just changed the crime you can be charged with to a very serious felony that is less likely to be plea bargained down.

    In my actual experience using light to gain a tactical advantage no one ever shot at the light. I don’t believe that was because of “cop privilege”. Not saying it has never happened just saying that in my experience if you use it properly light can be a force multiplier.

    If you hit someone in the eyes with a bright light there is going to be a few seconds where they aren’t going to see anything but the image of that light blocking out other things in their vision.

    A few years ago I started a thread here about the tactical use of light. A search should bring that up.

    In a fixed position like your home you can install floodlights and literally hide behind a wall of light. If you are using a handheld light you can light the subject up and then kill the light and move. By the time their night vision starts coming back you are no longer where the subject thinks you are.
     
  21. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    I wouldn't shoot in response to a bright light that would cause you a world of legal troubles
     
  22. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,591
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Here is a link to the television news report with the interview with the home owner.


    Sheriff says armed criminal gangs are targeting unlocked vehicles
    http://via.fox2now.com/isIRS
     
    boom boom and Rule3 like this.
  23. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    IOW truck guns are a really bad idea
     
    JeffG and G.E. Lee like this.
  24. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,351
    Location:
    south Florida
    As already mentioned... your tactics in a confrontation are far more important than whatever weapon you have... We teach folks how to shoot and how to properly handle a firearm - but the tactics side of things is often (most often...) neglected. Folks in law enforcement are taught proper tactics -but many of them forget what they're taught in the moment. If they survive the incident the smart ones go back to what they were taught or seek additional training - then practice proper survival tactics. The dummies keep making the same errors (if they survive...).

    My bible, all those years ago (late seventies, early eighties...) was the book Street Survival. It's pretty dated now -but the basic tactics they advise are still very sound. All of my survival experience was gained in police work but the basic tactics can be employed by any armed citizen -and an armed citizen has the great advantage of not being obligated to act the way someone in law enforcement is.... No need to pursue, no absolute need to confront, etc.

    When my small agency really got dedicated to officer survival training.... One hundred sworn during the height of the cocaine wars in south Florida... We always pointed out to our officers that what they saw on TV or in the movies could very likely get them killed... Our short form was that if you behaved like John Wayne - you were a candidate to join him at the local graveyard...
     
    JeffG and 40-82 like this.
  25. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,771
    Location:
    Colorado
    Another thing that I got from this I don't think that homeowner walked out the door expecting a fight.

    I think he thought he was going to wave his gun around and the criminal was going to pee his pants and run screaming into the night like a little girl.

    I think his comment about needing a bigger gun is very telling because he didn't use the one he had effectively. I can't know this but I think that he's one of those people that thinks his gun is a magic charm.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice