Hornady Die Set Frustration

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I think the major problem when talking about 45 ACP reloading is using the trem "crimp" (also .40 and 9mm). I've read many, many threads about "crimping" problems for new reloaders, and I believe they are confused by the term crimping and expect to see a change in the brass at the case mouth. Many answers come back with their calipers and a measurement/diminsion that adds to the "magic" and confusion ("I crimp my 45s to .472"). I personally believe that 45 ACP cartridges should not be "crimped", but the mouth "de-flared"! Just enough to remove any flare from the case mouth. On my first 45 ACP dies I straightened out the case mouth, "de-flared", using the supplied roll crimp die (long time ago so I don't remember the mfg. of the dies), but now I have an RCBS taper "de-flaring" die. I also believe the bullet is held in place with neck tension, not a crimp, so a true "crimp" is unnecessary and can be detrimental.

Hey, jes my .02 from reading a lot of reloading forums, and shooting a bunch of .45s in my 1911 and P90....
 
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MDI -
Exactly my thoughts.

Add to that, that crimp is done with the die body which is lowering at 14 threads per inch, so it only takes 1/16 turn to do a lot of adjustment. The only adjustment a lot of people are used to making is the bullet seating stem which is usually on a 28 tpi or 32 tpi thread. So people get used to making adjustments in whole revolutions, when in fact with taper crimp adjustments a LOT of finesse is required.

In this hobby you either learn finesse or you have difficulty. It really helps to come to reloading with a background in using a micrometer. Taper crimp requires adjustments equal to 1/3 the diameter of a human hair. Sadly, not everyone has that exposure.
 
I have a 9MM and a .40 Hornady seater, and they do indeed have a roll crimp ledge built into the sliding sleeve. Stupid if you ask me.
 
Walk - What looks different inside roll and taper crimp die bodies? Is the roll crimp ledge just more abrupt?

Thanks,

Koski
 
A great deal more abrupt.

Some roll crimp seaters/crimp dies, especially older roll crimp seaters, have a short, almost a 90 degree ledge, while some of the newer dies will have a somewhat longer 45ish degree ledge. Both work. I have pics of crimps with both styles in this thread.

The taper crimp die will have a much longer part of the die with a slight taper to it. I would guess more like 5 degrees. They are much more forgiving because the "crimp" gets tighter over a much longer distance.

I wish I had the setup to get enough light inside some dies to get some good pics.

I bet rfwobbly could draw some nice examples.
 
I made a crude Excel pic that shows the differences reasonably well.
 

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Thought I would weigh in my recent experience on the topic. I've been reloading Berry's SWC for my Kimbers for about a year. Recent posts here have shown they seem to feed better with a crimp of .469" I have the Hornady 3 die set on my LNL, and I can only get it to taper crimp to about .470 - .471 , any more of an adjustment of the die and it starts roll crimping the brass. :fire: I just ordered a set of Redding taper crimps hoping these will allow me to get the crimp down to .469.
 
Update: I broke down and ordered Hornady taper crimp dies for .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I know. I know. I fell for it. I wanted to have complete Hornady sets, and their crimp dies are reasonably priced.

The .40 S&W crimp die worked GREAT. Very well made die. I haven't received the .45 ACP die yet but have 200 rounds wainting it to be delivered.

You just shouldn't have to buy an extra taper crimp die for an autoloading cartridge die set.
 
I agree that Hornady should just sell a 4 die set like Lee. Give us a choice!!

I've got the taper crimp die for 9mm Luger & 45ACP. They work well and are very easy to setup. Don't remember if you shoot lead, but don't over crimp w/lead rounds.
 
I just ordered a set of Redding taper crimps hoping these will allow me to get the crimp down to .469.
Click to expand...
They work great.

I broke down and ordered Hornady taper crimp dies for .40 S&W and .45 ACP
Click to expand...
Problem solved.

I agree that Hornady should just sell a 4 die set like Lee. Give us a choice!!
Click to expand...
They should put the proper crimp (Taper) in the seater, period. Then if we want to crimp in a fourth step we can always buy a separate crimp die, but the three die set should come with the proper crimp built in, like all the other makers do.
 
I bought the .40 S&W Hornady taper crimp die a couple of weeks ago and used it with success. I received my .45 ACP Hornady taper crimp die this afternoon and "crimped" 200 rounds to .470-.471" for my Glock 21.

While I think Hornady's approach to the die sets for automatic calibers is frustrating, confusing and a bit dishonest, I must admit that their taper crimp dies are top notch. They seem to have a gentle gradual taper.

What crimp measurement should I be "shooting" for if I am just straightening the case and ensuring reliable feeding?
 
For .45 ACP all you want is to remove the bell or a hair more. Since I shoot mixed, untrimmed, brass, I adjust the crimp die so the shortest cases get the bell removed, and the longer ones will get .001 or maybe even .002 crimp.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6284211&postcount=63

attachment.php
 
@walkalong

I think you will be interested to know that Midway has an adv. from
Hornady:

Hornady 3 die set in 45 acp with a taper crimp built into the seater die

Coming soon-----------------$45.00
Are you happy--I'm happy! ! ! !-------------:):D:D:)
 
It's always best to taper crimp as a separate step. The reason being is you can control the OAL and crimp better. If your moving the bullet down (seating) and necking the brass (sizing) down at the same time you can cause shaving on lead bullets. With the roll crimp you have the cannalure grove to work in so no conflicting process.

I think a 4 die set would be better but for those who only have a 4 station press, may not have a place for the extra die.
 
Not with .45 ACP etc.

The amount of crimp is so minimal and there is so little bullet movement during crimping it is a non factor. O.A.L. is not affected any more than taper crimping in a second step. Any accuracy difference in .45 ACP could only be proven with a Ransom Rest and a superbly accurate gun.

Folks have fallen in love with crimping in a fourth step, and that is fine, and in some applications is is totally necessary, but in many it is not needed. Better to do it whether needed or not? Good question. Sometimes yes and sometimes no, but 99% of shooters (myself included), can not shoot a handgun well enough to prove the difference.

For decades, millions of very accurate rounds were loaded seating and crimping in the same step.

All this "have too", and it is "always better" is simply not so.

Lets just say it like it is, which, most times, is we prefer to, even if it isn't really needed, because it is easier to set up. Of course sometimes, every once in a while, it will prove more accurate in offhand shooting, but always, nah. :)
 
I always crimp in a separate step. I was just frustrated that dies made for primarily autoloading cartridges didn't come with a taper crimp, forcing you to have to buy a separate die. Hornady doesn't tell you on the box.
 
I suspect Hornady likes roll crimp because it is less expensive to make. A 90 deg. corner instead of a smooth taper. Even their 308 Win has a roll crimp. I seat and crimp in separate steps so I just use the crimp die I need. RCBS gives you a choice, as marked on the box.
 
The hornady seating die uses a combination roll/taper crimp ring. If crimped lightly, it will taper crimp. If heavier crimp is applied, it will roll crimp. Getting the right taper crimp with it is pretty touchy, so I usually just use a separate taper crimp die. Taper crimping with any seater die while seating is tricky, especially if you do not have all your brass trimmed to a common length.

When I want a roll crimp, I do that while seating with the Hornady seater; it is pretty forgiving for that.

Andy
 
It will not taper crimp. If you trim all the brass exactly the same and adjust it just right, it will do a halfway job of removing the bell, but it won't taper crimp properly.

That is the same BS Lee puts out about their "in between crimp" type ledge. It simply will not do a proper taper crimp.

Getting the right taper crimp with it is pretty touchy, so I usually just use a separate taper crimp die.
Click to expand...
There you go.

Taper crimping with any seater die while seating is tricky, especially if you do not have all your brass trimmed to a common length.
Click to expand...
It's not tricky at all with a proper taper crimp set up.
 
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