question for sporting clay folks-looking to buy gun

Beretta 3901 and my first chocie a Mossberg 930. Both are semis. No need for an O/U.

You may want to wonder over to http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/index.php

Someone esle asked the same question there in one of the forums.

I too shot a Beretta A391 for clays and love it. However an over/under does give you a choice of two instant chokes. The best advice I could give you is look around for a used Beretta 390 or 391 for clays. My 391 came with various stock inserts to give me almost a custom fit and that's an important fiture. Another good choice would be a new or used Remington 11-87, another excellent shotgun for clays. Good luck.

First things first - 1-2 K for a target gun is NOT high end. If you are serious about getting better and having a gun that will last and let you improve, the gun is the LEAST cost in the equation between targets, ammo, gas, food, etc.

Buy once, cry once, shoot for a lifetime

You would be better saving up a little while longer and getting the Beretta or Browning O/U if that's what you want, or at least the Beretta gas gun - either the 390 or 391 or A400. new, they are running 2K, used, about half that

TARGET Beretta or Brownings start abut 3K for new, about half that for used in good condition.

Succeeding in sporting is about gun FIT, first and foremost, followed by focus and follow through - the three "F"'s if you will.

Stoeger, Yildiz, Baikal, CZ are not made for the long haul or for shooting thousands and thousands of rounds. Personally, you would be better off getting your Mossberg fitted and some lessons while saving up for a better gun.

I paid over 1,000 for my Browning over 18 years ago. To date, it has about 150,000 rounds through it - not a lot by any means for a target gun. At 90,000 rounds, I had some springs replaced and went ahead and had the firing pins replaced - that's it for repairs - those others you mentioned won't come close to that longevity

You really DO get what you pay for - sometimes it is better to do it right the first time; otherwise you'll always be second guessing yourself

It's a great sport and very addicting

1 oz has it. Unless you indulge a weakness for the boutique makers, the overhead will come to much more than the price of a lifetime tool.

I paid about $1725 (or the family did after I told them what they were getting for me) for my Beretta White Onyx Sporter. That was less than 4 years past,IIRC.

I've spent way more than that since on ammo,components and range fees.

And that Beretta, with some PM and small parts replaced, will outlast me, the next owner and so on....

Here's a link to a pretty good article about different prices on O/U's
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=253741

Sure a used browning or Beretta is a good choice. I purchased a Lanber 2097 Sporting Lux from cdnn for $699.00. They retail for over $1000 and some sell them for just a little over $900. They are made in the Basque region of Spain. They have been making quality shotguns for a long time.

Just a thought.

I have only had the Lanber out once but it shot great!

Don't think you'll be 'limping by' with your pump gun. Until you have a good understanding of the fundamentals - gun fit, gun mount, hold point, break point - it's unlikely the gun will be your limiting factor. Shoot the heck out of it, spend money on shells and targets, and by the time it's worn smooth you'll know what you want to get next.

Some of these clays courses go out of their way to provide different and challenging scenarios, partly to keep clientele from becoming bored or mastering it and going to another course. Even to the point where the designers develope a little notoriety. The favorite is to pitch you a change up. 2 completely different types of shots on the same stand. That is one advantage to a O/U, choice of 2 chokes. Overunders also are more reliable because the fouling cant get to the action and clog up the works. If your thinking about changing to a O/U your going to have to learn a whole different type of gun. I would recommend a gun that weighs at least 7 1/2 lbs. 8 even better. Purchasing a field gun, made to be carried much and shot little, will add flinch to your shooting before anything else. The weight will also help to steady your swing, and follow through. Overbored barrels, porting, recoil reducers, all intended to reduce recoil, can be adressed with a heavier gun, with less cost than the doo-dads. I would also try to find a gun that closely matches the stock dimensions of your Mossberg. But be prepared for the cost of the gun, or investment to add to the seriousness or constant cost analysis of your investment. Was it worth what I spent, has it improved my game and on and on. For me it takes away from the game aspect or any relaxing benefits, it may have provided. I use a Mossberg 835, it's fun again,
and I can focus more on improving my shooting, than what if I scatch it. It also adds something I didn't expect. If you start to best someone, that spent $2000 and up on their gun, with a Mossberg, there is a definite head game advantage. Just the medicine, for what I call shotgun snobs. I watched a kid with a camo, Benelli Nova pump gun, his duck gun, take 2nd place in a tournament, the effect on "the old salts" was impressive. I don't think he even changed out chokes!

It might be better to spend $250-$300 bucks on a used Stoeger, just to see if you even like an O/U. Before you drop a grand on something that you eventually hate. It seems the Lanbers are very popular. As best you can get for the money. I haven't had one, but I did fix the safety on an older one, for a friend. I had the stock off to see the action, and I would say they are better finished inside than a lot of other guns on the market.

I agree with Ruger up until the last statement. If you buy the Beretta or Browning-level gun and you decide no thanks, you'll get your money out of it - something that won't happen with the cheaper guns

The heaviest gun that FITS, 8#+, coupled with the lightest loads, 1oz or less and 1200 fps or less, with barrels at least 30" if not 32 will give you light recoil, smooth swing and years of enjoyment.

I'm not saying a pump can't be used to a somewhat agreeable degree; however, working that action while the second bird is arcing away and dropping and you have now pulled your barrel off the flight line as you shuck it, is a BIG handicap, something that a GOOD semi or O/U of the TARGET version won't have.

Remember, the cost of the gun is the least of your expenses.

If you buy a $3,000 new Browning or Beretta, shoot it for ten years and then sell your gun, you will get most of the cost of the gun back. That won't happen as you buy cheap gun after cheap gun and sell them for losses every 6 months to a year.

If you shoot sporting once per week and maybe 2 rounds of something else like trap/skeet or 5-stand, that's 200 per week or about 10,000 per year. Target costs run about .30/each plus ammo. Ammo runs about .25 per shell. Call it a total of .50 per target including ammo - that's $5,000 the first year. Do it for ten years, that's $50,000. Look at like that, $3,000 for a gun that will last that long or longer versus a cheap gun you replace at a loss every 6 months to a year is, in my book, a no-brainer.

I bought a nice Wingmaster at a garage sale a decade ago. I put $200 into a nice 30" trap barrel and have been using it on the trap field since then. I've got less than $400 into the gun. Sure, it wasn't $1200 but I can shoot as well (and outshoot many) of the hotshots on the range with Beretta's and Benelli's. Those guys have a severe case of "the big I ams." They'd rather look good than shoot good. I'm not saying that some can't shoot good, they sure can, but the gun doesn't make the shooter. I love this Wingmaster and it shoots great. Nothing like embarrassing the big money guys on the trap field

Thanks for the input folks! I think i will just limp by with my pump and save the money instead of jumping into a cheaper gun.

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If you're shooting a lot you can save a few bucks by getting into reloading. You'll get better shells out of it too.

I bought a nice Wingmaster at a garage sale a decade ago. I put $200 into a nice 30" trap barrel and have been using it on the trap field since then. I've got less than $400 into the gun. Sure, it wasn't $1200 but I can shoot as well (and outshoot many) of the hotshots on the range with Beretta's and Benelli's. Those guys have a severe case of "the big I ams." They'd rather look good than shoot good. I'm not saying that some can't shoot good, they sure can, but the gun doesn't make the shooter. I love this Wingmaster and it shoots great. Nothing like embarrassing the big money guys on the trap field

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Sure that works on a trap singles field - but take your gun over to the sporting clays course (the topic), lose your wealth/class envy for a minute, and see how well you do with that pump, especially on a screaming second target where you have maybe a half second after shooting the first to get on it and fire - all while working that shucker......

I suspect you might come away with a different view point

Nice going, you have completely ruined my hobby. I had no idea I was spending that kind of money, to break crockery. No wonder I can't afford a new car. I'm going to sell my guns. Do you think I will have more guys able to afford my Stoeger or my Browning Cynergy? I'll probably have to sell the Browning back to the dealer, who will tell me the use it was impervious to, 2 years ago when it was a selling point, has, greatly affected its value. No you will take a loss in both cases. In one case 3-400 bucks, off what you paid for it. In the other, 3-400 bucks might be the total loss. throw it off a bridge, give it to your BIL, run over it with your car until you feel better. Still out less money. It is a mistake to think you will get your money back in a gun,unless you are willing to wait years. The difference between retail new gun, retail used gun, wholesale new gun, wholesale used gun. Is a fairly wide margin, enough to keep chain stores open, and gun merchants fed. Think about it would you as a merchant pay more for a used gun, than what a new one costs wholesale? If he DID pay the same amount, the seller still loses the difference between retail and wholesale. The merchant marks trade in up to used retail value, and makes money on that end too. Example retail on the gun of your dreams is $1000. Wholesale might be $750. Your used gun and used it shall be once you walk out with it, will be that amount, the dealer can give you and still be able to sell it at a profit, so probably about 40% less than you paid. or $600!, $1000-40%, $400, loss wether you shoot the you know what out of it, or run 2 boxes thru it. So unless you can get Elvis to sign it. Or can wait until rust and obsolesence have killed all the others of that model. You will not be able to recoop your gun cost.:banghead:

If you have to have a premium gun, buy used, get a warranty in writing from the dealer. The manufacturer won't much care if you aren't the orig owner.
Let the first guy take the beating.

BigN, I get it , I'm with you a hundred percent. When we're talking about pumps, we mean guns, not shoes and handbags, the snarky shot about wealth/class envy, is about what I would expect from a guy that buys Gucci shotguns. We disagree, leave it at that. I know from past experience this post will be followed, with much wailing and nashing of teeth. Insults to my class, education, probably even political affiliation. You know Aldo Gucci sells overpriced shoes and handbags, for a living, he is going to have to come up with a catchy, short, tag line, crafted for billboards and short attention spans. To say his is worth more than the other guys. There is no deep wisdom or clever insight to it. The phrase reflects his motivation to sell shoes and accessories that must be better because not everybody can or wants to afford them.To imply his are automatically better because they cost more....huh, well I guess it does apply, dont buy more than you need, because it costs more it is not automatically better,and if they are ridiculously expensive, no one will show up at the party wearing the same thing. yeah ok , Gucci perfect example of overpriced crap. Pushed by snobs that only derive pleasure from life by having deeper pockets. Damn, you must have stepped on my wealth/class envy.

I was in exactly same situation as a you chevyman097 some time ago. I decided to go with Huglu. They are made in Turkey. It is a lot of gun for a reasonable amount of money. I shot about ~2000 rounds. No problem so far. I know it is not much. Have a look here and decide yourself http://www.trimports.com/commerce/ccc1013-shotguns.htm
Regarding "buy once - cry once". Several friends are using Brownings for skeet shooting. I witnessed myself - after one round of skeet ( 25 shots) a friend of mine is having constant problem with opening his Browning. Gun gets hot and requires execcive amount of force to open. It's happens on a regular base. It is a 2k gun. IMHO price tag doesn't guarantee you lack of problems.

BigN, I get it , I'm with you a hundred percent. When we're talking about pumps, we mean guns, not shoes and handbags, the snarky shot about wealth/class envy, is about what I would expect from a guy that buys Gucci shotguns. We disagree, leave it at that. No amount of hysterics or shrill back biting is likely to change my mind. I welcome your hypersonic response.

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Slightly full of yourself aren't you? How nice to see the degradation you spew - not very THR

If you had bothered to comprehend things, you would have seen that his gun is perfect for what he is using it for, BUT that is NOT what the OP was asking about - do try to keep up Ruger, OK?

Hmmm, Gucci doesn't make shotguns, but knowing the quality of his work, I am sure if he did, they would be very well made

If you think a Browning or Beretta is high end, you need to start looking around a little better and become better educated about such things - you might be surprised what some folks who actually shoot a LOT of sporting spend on a gun that will last. And even then, the cost of targets and ammo far surpasses the cost of the gun.

The constant "I can take my jack handle and beat everyone with their high-end stuff" IS class/wealth envy - and it really gets old - even to someone like me who is not wealthy by any means

There, see I did miss the point, your point was trap versus sporting clays isn't the same.
and I thought it was to take a shot at the guys alleged class/weath envy and choice of shotgun.

Theres that kind where ever you go what ever you do, the kind to raise the green fees to keep the riffraff out. Its not enough to go start a country club,and restrict membership. If you don't try to get in ,they will raise the fees on the city course. My friends and I experienced that to some degree, when we started out with Sporting Clays. Most of us worked together, and were friends already. We had fun with it. We even got on Ebay and bought some used golf carts and customized them, with gun racks. One with digital camo! The other like a lowrider with chingo-balls all around the canopy. We had fun with it. We were RIFF-RAFF, we were too ignorant to know our place. We clogged up the course for serious people trying to improve themselves,(as long as they knew their place.) These are the guys that, own the plants where we work. I have a friend one of the most naturally gifted athletes I can think of. He plays softball too.He also shoots a 1970s model Mossberg 500 with the accuchoke knob on the barrel. Its not his gun, its one of his 4 brothers, all of them use it, and can't remember who had it originally. The point is he shoots it just as good right handed as left handed. he actually is left handed. He has his head shaved in a mohawk. I dearly love, to shoot a round with him, on a Saturday, and the swells are pushing us, our large party is too slow, because for a whole round, 4 of them will get educated what it is to be a good shot. I simply could not enjoy it more if I could shoot that well. Mid 80s his average. His other gun is the O/U Stoeger, I mentioned last week. I'm going to try and keep up, though not in heels. I guess I'll have to read up on designer handbags too. Apparently quality transends all,even reason or relevance. I did get a kick out of you, defending Gucci. I knew you would before you admitted anyone else could be right.

For the perfect CLASS/ENVY gun I recommend Stoeger and Mossberg, they work, they are affordable, and they give shotgun snobs the slobberin fits and are pretty good for Sporting Clays too.

RugerMcMarlin said:

If you have to have a premium gun, buy used, get a warranty in writing from the dealer. The manufacturer won't much care if you aren't the orig owner.
Let the first guy take the beating.

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Ruger would, I think.

Ruger might....Would what?

Oscar Wilde said that" Brevity was the soul of wit". But that was so brev I don't even get it.

If you mean "let the first guy take the beating". yes I would ,some guys fall for hype some don't.

Well, if you were treated as riff-raff, YOUR words then you either: got treated badly by a bunch of jerks, OR you were labeled by the way you acted.

In any event, it really sounds more like YOU have the issue with other folks who make more than you do.......something YOU need to really get over, no matter what sport you get into. Your sorry attitude is exactly what Brady and company hope to exploit - nothing like the us vs. them to get them going.......way to go

Perhaps you should take that attitude and turn into something positive - that is, if you are capable of getting over it. YOU are the one that seems hung up on gun value.........personally, I could care less what you shoot.........my previous point to the OP was that a pump IS a handicap when it comes to shooting sporting as the shucking action tends to pull your gun off the flight line of the target

Sorry if you are so hung up on envy to realize that.

Let me know when you win the Nationals with your Stoeger.

Folks who really want to get better at this sport and realize their full potential will realize just how full of it you are and how they really need a good gun to compete. If YOUR goal is to shoot a little and drink a beer or two and just kick back - good for you, shoot what ya got; but to those whop really want to get better and shoot better

get a gun that fits, get the best gun you can afford, get a lesson or three, then go practice and stop worrying about class envy or wealth status as ANY course will welcome you with no reservation or impunity, no matter what a few disgruntled folks think

Wow! I guess that was a hot shot at me by a drinker of Perrier...I prefer tap water myself, but I guess that just goes to show the depth of my class envy. I have no class envy. What I have is a problem with people who make crude remarks when I walk out onto the field with a Wingmaster, while they're leaning on their Beretta's taking a smoking break with their $50 cigars. I'm glad when people have money, more power to them, but when they act like the south end of a north bound mule toward someone who can't afford a $2000 shotgun, then yes, I have a big problem with that. You can call it class envy if you want but if you wanted to drop the attitude and see straight for a change, you'd call it not liking someone who acts like a Richard

I went back and read post 19 several times slowly due to my lack of comprehension. I looked up Degradation and I think it applies. I didn't think Gucci made shotguns either, so I was right about that.I've been stuggling with why anyone would quote him anyway. Since they don't do you have a designer gun you recommend. Or is it more a matter of calling Big Ns gun or my gun or anyone elses ,a Jack Handle. I think you have been taken to school sometime in the past, with a "jack handle". Maybe it will happen again, soon. I wish I had not responded to your post # 19. You made my point better than I did.

You do actually have a point, it does sound as if I have been made to feel unwelcome or I think everyone who can afford a more expensive gun is automatically an ---. Not so I have found assability more or less unaffected by income or ability. I had that experience with Skeet and Trap, but not in sporting clays for the most part ,90%, people have been friendly and helpful. Usually people with enough money to buy what they want are more focused on their own shooting, and have enough class not to boast or trash other peoples hardware. Its always the 5% that pisses you off and again your right they are in any sport. I get your point also that if I can't afford a good gun and the way more significant cost of targets and shells, I should just stay home. The logic that you have to spend as much as some people make in a year, to enjoy sporting clays is , I'll try to be more Gucci like, Poppycock! Don't worry your pretty little head about it, I'll get by.

For clarification, looking up, is class/wealth envy. looking down is Jack Handles or junk.

Looking from over here its Jack something too.