Variable Load/Filler Experiment

Foto Joe · Jan 29, 2012

Yesterday I decided that since the range I found had a nice bench set-up at all the stations that I would "play" a little bit with my loads on two different guns and see if I could shall we say "refine" my loads a bit. The results were interesting (at least to me). All shots were fired from 15 yards using a rifle bench rest with the barrel resting in the "V" on a sandbag.

1860 Army - 16gr 3f/15gr Cornmeal

Here's one of the interesting results. The upper impacts were loaded with hand cast RB's loaded sprue up that were given to me by 45-70 Ranger, the lower shots were Hornady .454's with no sprue and were actually closer to POA. Since I didn't bother to note it, I can only guess that I had one flyer per cylinder of each.

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1860 Army - 22gr 3f/15gr Cornmeal

As we can see, it looks like the Army likes the 22gr loads better. Although I've still got some flyers, but since they actually hit the bull I'll settle for them I guess. The group got a LOT tighter with the 22gr load. Next time out I'll take a 30gr spout with me and see if I can improve on this a bit. Since this gun is very new to me it's gonna take a while to get myself dialed into it I'm sure. All these by the way were shot using Wades cast RB's.

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1851 "Fake" Navy - 16gr 3f/25gr Cornmeal

Here's where things get a little more interesting. This gun is my favorite and from what you see here it looks like I need either more practice or a different gun. I'm used to tearing the center out of target shooting this thing duelist from 10 yards, you would think that benched from 15 yards would yield one BIG hole after a dozen rounds. So what's up?? Look at the pic below from something I didn't realize made that much difference.

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1851 "Fake" Navy - 16gr 3f/20gr Cornmeal

I was pleasantly surprised to find that by cutting back on the filler, my group tightened up.

Conclusions....

So it appears that not only using filler, but "how much" filler can make a substantial difference in Point Of Impact as is evidenced by the "Fake" Navy targets. I think next time I go out I will set myself up specifically to run some tests to explore this further. Popular belief would have us prefering to have that ball as close to the chamber mouth and therefore forcing cone as reasonably possible. According to this ultra un-scientific data that I pulled out of my rear yesterday, that may not be true. More testing needs to be done and wouldn't ya know, that will involve more shooting. :cuss:

the luck!!

mykeal · Jan 29, 2012

More testing needs to be done and wouldn't ya know, that will involve more shooting.

Uh, didn't you kind of expect that would be the case regardless of the results?

I tried this a few years ago and found that the filler helped a little off a rest, not at all offhand. And the gun didn't seem to matter much.

Actually, some days it mattered more than others and over the entire bunch I couldn't really draw any strong conclusions. But I did get to shoot a lot.

TheRodDoc · Jan 29, 2012

You can't expect much accuracy with something behind the ball, be it filler or a wad.
Because as it leaves the muzzle the ball is out of the rifling but the filler is still in the muzzle and is still being pushed by the gas pressure and will try to push around the ball at the least resistance. If more starts over the ball it will push the ball down. If it starts out the left side it will push the ball to the right and etc.

Wad is simular. gas can blow through edge at least resistance and move the ball.

Don't put anything under the ball but the powder.

t

MCgunner · Jan 29, 2012

Interesting results and your navy shoots about like mine does. maybe a BIT more accurate. I get around 4-5" at 25 yards using 21 grains equiv. 777 and 16 grains corn meal filler and a round ball. Interesting that you cut the filler, brought the ball back a bit, and got BETTER results. The idea of the filler is to push the ball up and get less free bore and get compression on the powder which it needs to work well, burn consistently. I know that if I DON'T use filler at all, my groups go to squat. I've never tried the wads. Cornmeal is always in the kitchen.

45-70 Ranger · Jan 29, 2012

Joe,

Rather than resting the weapon on the sandbag, rest your hand on the bag. By resting the barrel on the bag you are allowing the weapon's recoil to be altered. Thus changing the POI as to your POA. That is why with my long guns I never use a sandbag to shoot or sight in. There is no sandbag for us when we shoot in the field hunting. A weapon sighted in on a bench with the barrel forced into a bag will not shoot the same as without the rest. Often a barrel resting on a bag will shoot higher than if held in ones hands with the elbows and such resting on the bench. The harmonics involved in the weapon's movement during the travel of the bullet down the bore is altered to effect the POI if the barrel is only supported by a bench/bag combination. You will not see a benchrest shooter ever use his weapon shooting off hand or another position other than off a bench with full support of the weapon.

Now with a pistol, the barrel is much shorter and stiffer, but it does still have an amount of harmonics involved. By allowing the barrel to have some restrictions in this, the vibrations of the barrel is interupted. Kinda like taking a tube windchime and as it's ringing, place a finger on it along the tube and the sound alters and will not have the same tone. This is the best analogy I can think of to explain this change in vibration.

So if you rest your weapon in your hand and allow you hands to hold the weapon and rest THEM on the bag you should see a difference in how your shooting goes from a bench and, it will be much closer to how you shoot offhand. There will still be a bit of difference due to your hands being more immobile, but it should be much less pronounced.

Oh, and I'm glad you like the cast rounds

Hollar if you ever want some more. My casting area is alaways ready....

Wade

FreddyKruger · Jan 29, 2012

i 2nd the sandbag observation. my walker hits to the right by about 5" on a sandbag at 25m. offhand it hits high as usual.

Foto Joe · Jan 30, 2012

TheRodDoc brings up an interesting theory although it does fly against common belief/myth, that you want that ball as close to the forcing cone as possible. I'm willing to give the thought the benefit of the doubt and test it to see what the results of one of my super un-scientific studies will reveal. The only problem I see with it is with the Fake Navy for instance, I need filler to be able to get the ball down onto the powder with such a light charge. Not so much of an issue with an Army or Dragoon though, but I'm not interested in upping the charge on that brass Navy to 22gr, I'd like to be able to put a couple thousand more rounds through it before it rattles so bad I have to wear earplugs when it's holstered.

MCGunner,
Keep up with your cornmeal as a filler if it suits your needs, the stuff compresses quite well and it's cheap. I've used the lube wads before and they aren't worth the expense at all, unless you make them of course and I'm way too lazy for that endeavour. I am going to take some "veggie" wads with me though that I use for cartridge loading. Using TheRodDoc's thinking I'll try a veggie wad between powder and filler and also between filler and ball and see if I get any difference. What's the worst that can happen?? Oh yeah, I might have to call Wade and ask if he's cast any more .454's.

Wade,
Another interesting point about the sandbags. I think I stated in the OP that bench shooting was about as familiar to me as astro-physics, so I can use all the help I can get. I'll use the V sandbag next time for my wrist instead of the barrel. Besides, that sandbag was an oily nasty mess to clean up after I was done.

Gotta go guys, the bike shop called from Huntsville on Saturday while I was shooting and said that my fender finally arrived and the bike will be waiting for me to take her home on Monday morning, which is NOW!! Six weeks without my ride has sucked and it's time for Teri and I to get back in the wind.

MCgunner · Jan 30, 2012

Rather than resting the weapon on the sandbag, rest your hand on the bag. By resting the barrel on the bag you are allowing the weapon's recoil to be altered. Thus changing the POI as to your POA. That is why with my long guns I never use a sandbag to shoot or sight in. There is no sandbag for us when we shoot in the field hunting. A weapon sighted in on a bench with the barrel forced into a bag will not shoot the same as without the rest.

Do you quantify your rifles off a bench rest or off hand standing at 100 yards? One cannot QUANTIFY the accuracy of the revolver hand held. One MUST rest it. Now, I don't rest mine using the barrel, rest the gun on the bags at the frame/trigger guard. Ideally I'd have a ransom rest, but I'm not that rich so I don't have that sort of discretionary income. Anyway, I don't know if they make inserts for various cap and ball guns.

But, I learn nothing from someone telling me their new gun shot such and such a group off hand at 7 yards then going on about how they're not going to be shooting self defense at 25 yards and aren't going to be shooting off a rest when in a fight. 25 yards is an arbitrary standard. It allows the gun's groups to be compared. And, in order to compare the gun and not the shooter, the gun must be rested.

BTW, in the field hunting I ALWAYS shoot from a rest. I NEVER take an off hand shot except when still hunting at close range. If I'm lining up on a mulie across a New Mexico canyon, I'll be shooting off shooting sticks at the very least. I do the same handgun hunting, shoot from a rest. I rest my contender on its forestock. It does not change the point of impact. The forestock is screwed to the barrel, that's how it mounts. Heck, when shooting IHMSA I rested that gun on my leg Creedmore on the forestock, not the frame. And at 25 yards, I don't think there's enough barrel harmonics or such in a handgun, anyway, to matter. Certainly isn't at 200 yards on steel rams. No, I don't rest a rifle on the barrel, but rifles/handguns = apples/oranges. But, I bench rest my rifles, too, to sight in, have to, can't do it otherwise, not and be accurate out to 400 or more yards. You just rest the rifle on the STOCK, not the barrel. This is why Harris bipods attach to the stock, not the barrel. Folks shoot off a bipod all the time to hit little stuff at long ranges.

MCgunner · Jan 30, 2012

Oh, BTW, especially with BP revolvers, i've learned to tape duct tape over the top bag when I'm shooting off sandbags. A magnum revolver can burn/cut the bag with flash from the barrel/cylinder gap. A Colt Navy can catch the bag of fire. LOL I've done it. Embarrassing.

mustanger · Jan 30, 2012

Personally I like to shoot a gun across sand bags, to get to know the gun and to sight it in, that takes me out of the equation, and I know what the gun can do/ is doing. And then I can consentrate on me. Otherwise, if the gun shoots badly, and I shoot badly, the bullets could accidently hit in the same place, and I would get a really big head. lol

Noz · Jan 30, 2012

I bought a new set of fancy leather sandbags a few years back when my interest was ultra hot loads in 41 and 44 mag pistols. I took the new bags to the range for a session with a Super Red Hawk. On about the tenth shot with the barrel laying on the bag produces a lot of gritty material on the shooting bench. Around #12 and I was covered with sand. completely destroyed the bag.

45-70 Ranger · Jan 30, 2012

I was asked once by Joe why I don't post many things here. This is one of the reasons. First of all I do not use words like 'quantify' and such. The response I was making was for Joe's shooting style. Have you shot with him at a range? I have. Joe shoots standing up and mostly with one hand. My comments were directed to Joe to work with his shooting style. I'm glad you shoot off of sticks and benches and such. Joe does not. He was simply trying to find how tight a group he could get with his BP wheelguns. Placing the barrel on a bag will not give him the results that will help him in HIS shooting style. Standing up!

I am frankly tired of having to 'qualify' every post I make here. I based my comment on 4 years as a weapons instructor in the Army. Two tours in SE Asia with comfirms that are about equal to the average temp here in Texas in July. Over 20 years instructing officers in combat shooting and a small select group of police snipers. And 30 years of professional gunsmithing. And further surviving three shoot outs as an officer. Now that's more than I've said in quite a while about my background. Now I'm tired of talking about this.

I'm done here. I can see now why so many get frustrated and start the bickering here. I'm not a child and do not approach things as such, but I will not tolerate being treated like a fool either. Yeah, I am done here. I won't return to this form of nonsence.

JOE, if ya want to talk to me further, send me an e-mail or give me a call at home. I won't be back here anymore.....

Variable Load/Filler Experiment

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