MOA Shooters

I've shot MOA a handful of times, but based on the low number of shots in those groups (5) and the low frequency with which it happens, I think they're flukes, a result of statistical clustering. I've held 1.5 MOA 20 round groups many a time, and although I can't print them without fail there's enough data points in each group that the possibility of it being a statistical anomoly is equivilent to zero. Thus I think of 1.5 MOA as the maximum accuracy of either myself or my rifle. (Probably myself, my long gun skill level is not very high)

I agree with boricua9mm. Some folks are hedging by mentioning the best groups that they have shot or "on a good day." IMHO, those groups don't count (except maybe in a match). We all have seen the occasional groups that are amazingly small. To me, if you and your rifle can't do it for 5 groups of 5 shots each with some regularity, day in and day out, you and/or your rifle can't do it.

3 shot groups or 10 shoot groups moa, what really matters is nowing where that rifle will place that one cold barrel shot when you have what you have been waiting for in your sites. If it takes a couple rounds to settle in , it might be worthless at that first cold barrel long distance shot. Allways log your day at the range so you know when the time comes to make that quality shot you can do it.

Bushpilot said:

I agree with boricua9mm. Some folks are hedging by mentioning the best groups that they have shot or "on a good day." IMHO, those groups don't count (except maybe in a match). We all have seen the occasional groups that are amazingly small. To me, if you and your rifle can't do it for 5 groups of 5 shots each with some regularity, day in and day out, you and/or your rifle can't do it.

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"Can't" is a pretty big assumption on your part.
And 5 of 5 seems pretty random too actually.
Is that some sort of God given rule I don't know about?

I know I "don't" do it on a regular basis myself either.
But I already know that's because of lack of practice on my part.
But to insinuate that everybody "can't"...as in never gonna happen... is a pretty arrogant statement IMHO....lol

Bushpilot said:

I agree with boricua9mm. Some folks are hedging by mentioning the best groups that they have shot or "on a good day." IMHO, those groups don't count (except maybe in a match). We all have seen the occasional groups that are amazingly small. To me, if you and your rifle can't do it for 5 groups of 5 shots each with some regularity, day in and day out, you and/or your rifle can't do it.

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This is an interesting statement. I don't have an opinion on it, but when the OP asks about shooting 1MOA, is that 'I have shot 1 MOA with this gun' or 'I average 1 MOA with this gun'? Statistically, I suspect their is a huge gulf between the two.

Heartbeat and caffiene are my nemisis....

But I do own 3 rifles that shoot MOA or less more often than not. Pretty consistently.

Eyes get tired the longer you shoot, a little wind, a little mirage; it all adds up. I've found after 20 or so shots, everything starts getting off a bit. At least for me.

I think also, if you keep track of the barrel condition (how clean or not), the temperature of the barrel and ammo, site conditions, and how YOU place the shot; you can improve your shooting a lot. I can tell when I've pulled a shot. It may be only 1/4 or 1/2 inch, but I knew I pulled it all the same.

The 3, 5, or 10 shot debate always comes up, all the time. The way I figure it, 3 tells you the potential, 5 tells you you are consistent, 10 tells the rest of the story....

1" at 100 yards is alot smaller than most casual shooters understand, and yet I see ALOT of casual shooters claim that they shoot MOA. As an avid hot rodder I also know ALOT of people who claim that their ride is a 400+ pony machine because they've "done the math". They find a way to add up their K&N air filter, octane booster, wing spoiler, and whatever else over the counter part they've added in order to get that number without ever even seeing a dyno. I think alot of "MOA shooters" are in that same category.

Out of curiosity, do you guys consider strapping a rifle to a benchrest as someone "shooting MOA". I mean, can the shooter really take credit for that? Because while I know I can hit USMC "B-mod" targets all day long from 500 in the prone (about 4 MOA & iron sights) I seriously doubt I'd be a consistent MOA shooter even scoped with a bipod.

Sambo82 said:

1" at 100 yards is alot smaller than most casual shooters understand, and yet I see ALOT of casual shooters claim that they shoot MOA. As an avid hot rodder I also know ALOT of people who claim that their ride is a 400+ pony machine because they've "done the math". They find a way to add up their K&N air filter, octane booster, wing spoiler, and whatever else over the counter part they've added in order to get that number without ever even seeing a dyno. I think alot of "MOA shooters" are in that same category.

Out of curiosity, do you guys consider strapping a rifle to a bench rest as someone "shooting MOA". I mean, can the shooter really take credit for that? Because while I know I can hit USMC "B-mod" targets all day long from 500 in the prone (about 4 MOA & iron sights) I seriously doubt I'd be a consistent MOA shooter even scoped with a bipod.

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Would that be prone unsupported...or using sandbags?
I can't shoot worth a damn from a bench for some reason.
I can just never get comfortable.
Prone is much better for me.
I shot that way for 20 years in the army until I retired.

The 500 yard USMC Qual course position is prone, slung in, using only the body for support.


It's essentially an NRA or CMP prone position, minus the leather shooting jacket and instead of a good leather sling, a standard issue web sling.

BullfrogKen said:

The 500 yard USMC Qual course position is prone, slung in, using only the body for support.


It's essentially an NRA or CMP prone position, minus the leather shooting jacket and instead of a good leather sling, a standard issue web sling.

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"Leather shooting jacket"...lol.....

Thanks for the clarification.

highpower huh? I will say I have never shot a clean 200 score at 600 yards but lots of 198's and a few 199's. but you just gotta have that perfect day between yourself and the weather. I even shot a 197 with like 13-x's at 600 one time in a match. Funny thing is I actually had 2 sighters which were x's and my 1st shot of the 20 for record was a 7 at 7? oh well!

Now I do not shoot as much as I used to back in like 05 or 06 and I have only fired 1 round out of any firearm outside since the first week of aug. 2011 when I left the firing line at the nationals (camp perry) and that 1 round was on a nice muley.

But we are talking about MOA and highpower? What would someone consider a good group for you guys? I do not remember what the 10 ring is on the 200 yard slow prone target but have shot many cleans with some decent x counts. Had one group that did measure like 2 1/2" from center to center just once and thats not 1 MOA.

I do remember the 10 ring on the 100 yard slow prone target is 1 3/4" for highpower. so I know I can shoot that and have.

now that was shot in prone with yes that darn jacket and a slung rifle and always in a match and always for 20 shot groups.

Now that was with a open sighted ar15 service rifle legal also.

So If my ammo most likely will shoot under 1 MOA and my rifle most likely will also I believe the big factor for me is the light and wind and that darn thing between my ears.

Is it repeatible? well it gets close some times but all of those factors change minute by minute or day to day, but when shooting a match you do not get to pick the conditions and you can only control what is within your own powers to control.

have I shot 1 MOA in a match for 20 shots? NO

If I got up tommorrow and went to the range with the same set up I doubt I could keep it under 4 or 5 minutes on a reduced course target.

I am actually thinking of heading down to the wittington center and shoot for 3 or 4 days and start to get some decent practice in. gotta go look at the weather.

SabbathWolf said:

"Leather shooting jacket"...lol.....

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Yup, leather shooting jacket.

We had those cotton jackets which added no support at all, and gave maybe a little bit of padding in the elbows. The support offered by a leather jacket really does help.

Here's the qual targets sizes I shot on. I imagine they're still the same after all these years.

Jon Coppenbarger said:

I do not remember what the 10 ring is on the 200 yard slow prone target but have shot many cleans with some decent x counts. Had one group that did measure like 2 1/2" from center to center just once and thats not 1 MOA.

I do remember the 10 ring on the 100 yard slow prone target is 1 3/4" for highpower. so I know I can shoot that and have.

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Fella's this is a fellow who's placed in the President's Hundred at Camp Perry, how many times it is? Three? His performance is noteworthy. I'll be at Perry this year Jon. I'll look you up out there.


Target sizes . . . I have this in the front of my record book. Comes in handy.


NRA Sanctioned competition targets (HighPower Rifle)
4.2 100 Yard Targets
(a) NRA No. SR-1 Reduction of the SR Target for use at 100 yards to simulate the 200 yard stages of the National Match Course.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 1.35 8 ring . . . . . . . . 9.35
10 ring . . . . . 3.35 7 ring . . . . . . . . 12.35
9 ring . . . . . 6.35 6 ring . . . . . . . . 15.35
5 ring . . . . . . . . 18.35

(b) NRA No. SR-21 Reduction of the SR-3 Target to simulate the 300 yard stage of the National Match Course at 100 yards.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 0.79 7 ring . . . . . . . . 8.12
10 ring . . . . . 2.12 6 ring . . . . . . . . 10.12
9 ring . . . . . 4.12 5 ring . . . . . . . . 12.12
8 ring . . . . . 6.12


(c) NRA No. MR-31 Reduction of the MR-1 Target to simulate the 600 yard stage of the National Match Course at 100 yards.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 0.75 6 ring . . . . . . . . 7.75
10 ring . . . . . 1.75 5 ring . . . . . . . . 9.75
9 ring . . . . . 2.75
8 ring . . . . . 3.75
7 ring . . . . . 5.75

4.3 200 Yard Targets
(a) NRA No. SR - Military "Target, Rifle, Competition, Short Range."

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 3.00 8 ring . . . . . . . . 19.00
10 ring . . . . . 7.00 7 ring . . . . . . . . 25.00
9 ring . . . . . 13.00 6 ring . . . . . . . . 31.00
5 ring . . . . . . . . 37.00

(b) NRA No. SR-42 Reduction of the SR-3 Target to simulate the 300 yard stage of the National Match Course at 200 yards.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 1.90 7 ring . . . . . . . . 16.56
10 ring . . . . . 4.56 6 ring . . . . . . . . 20.56
9 ring . . . . . 8.56 5 ring . . . . . . . . 24.56
8 ring . . . . . 12.56


(c) NRA No. MR-52 Reduction of the MR-1 Target to simulate the 600 yard stage of the National Match Course at 200 yards.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 1.79 6 ring . . . . . . . . 15.79
10 ring . . . . . 3.79 5 ring . . . . . . . . 19.79
9 ring . . . . . 5.79
8 ring . . . . . 7.79
7 ring . . . . . 11.79


4.4 300 Yard Targets
(a) NRA No. SR-3 -Enlarged aiming black for use in 300-yard rapid fire matches only. Scoring rings are the same as the SR Target, with the 8-ring in the aiming black.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 3.00 7 ring . . . . . . . . 25.00
10 ring . . . . . 7.00 6 ring . . . . . . . . 31.00
9 ring . . . . . 13.00 5 ring . . . . . . . . 37.00
8 ring . . . . . 19.00


4.6 600 Yard Target
(a) MR-1 target - Military "Target, Rifle, Competition, Mid-Range." Used in 600-yard matches only.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 6.00 6 ring . . . . . . . . 48.00
10 ring . . . . . 12.00 5 ring . . . . . . . . 60.00
9 ring . . . . . 18.00
8 ring . . . . . 24.00
7 ring . . . . . 36.00


4.7 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
(a) LR target - Military "Target, Rifle, Competition, Long Range."

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . 10.00 7 ring . . . . . . . . 60.00
10 ring . . . . . 20.00 6 area . . . . . . . . 72x72 square
9 ring . . . . . 30.00
8 ring . . . . . 44.00


F-Class Competition

NOTE: F-Class Target Centers are to be used with MR-63, MR-65, MR-1 and LR targets for all F-Class shooting. When pasted onto the above mentioned targets the scoring will be conducted as follows: the new X-rings are valued 10-X. The old X-ring becomes the new 10-ring, the old 10-ring becomes the new 9-ring, etc.

4.4 300 Yard Target -
NRA No. MR-63FC - F-Class Target Center based on the MR-63 target for use at 300 yards. To be pasted over the MR-63 target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . . . . . 1.42 5 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 23.85
10 ring . . . . . . . . . . 2.85
9 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 5.85
8 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 8.85
7 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 11.85
6 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 17.85

4.6 600 Yard Targets -
NRA No. MR-1FC - F-Class target Center based on the MR-1 target for use at 600 yards. To be pasted over the MR-1 target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.00 5 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 48.00
10 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 6.00
9 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 12.00
8 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 18.00
7 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 24.00
6 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 36.00

4.7 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
NRA No LRFC - F-Class Target Center based on the LR target for use at 1000 yards.. To be pasted over the LR target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.00 6 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60.00
10 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 10.00 5 area . . . . . . . . . 72x72 Sq
9 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.00
8 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 30.00
7 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 44.00

I can only see a red "X" for the target pic Ken.
But the rest of that info is excellent and quite informative!

As for the jacket part, I never really thought about that kind of thing one way or another to be honest.
Interesting!

I shoot some F-class, in F-T/R with a factory savage 308. I think the best I've done is 13 shots in a row in the 1 MOA 10 ring at 600 yards. I think my average scores are in the 193-195 range. It's generally wind changes that get me, I have to work on my wind reading skills with out using wind flags.

In F-Open useing a 6BR the best I've done is 18 in a row in the 10 ring. (I tried to hold off for the wind on the last two, didn't hold enough) I'm sure this gun can easily do a clean 20 shot string. But, I haven't shot it much.

When I shoot benchrest matches at 600 with my factory savage 6BR, the gun aggs. around 4"(4 groups- 5 shots each a match). Not bad for a factory gun with light 75-80 gr. bullets. My custom savage 6BR shoots 2"-3" groups most of the time, but I think it can do better. You need to all 4 groups in the 2's to be competitve in this game.

For target shooting if a gun doesn't shoot sub MOA it's getting sold.

SabbathWolf, there was no arrogance on my part intended, just the opposite really. I can’t shoot 1 MOA prone without some sort of a rest and I will be the first to admit it. I was referring more to the capability of the rifle. 5, 5 shot groups may be arbitrary and not written in stone anywhere but my point is that during any experiment or test the results have to be consistent and repeatable or they are meaningless. I don’t really think 3 shot groups are much of a test. I was only trying to point out that it is way too common for a guy to shoot one 1 inch group at 100 yards and four 1.5 groups and low and behold he proclaims he and his rifle to be a 1 MOA shooter because he did it once.. And, that shooting 1 MOA shooting at 100 yards in no way guarantees that there are going to be 4 inch groups at 400 yards or 6 inch groups at 600 yards.. That was my point, no arrogance intended.

Bushpilot said:

SabbathWolf, there was no arrogance on my part intended, just the opposite really. I can’t shoot 1 MOA prone without some sort of a rest and I will be the first to admit it. I was referring more to the capability of the rifle. 5, 5 shot groups may be arbitrary and not written in stone anywhere but my point is that during any experiment or test the results have to be consistent and repeatable or they are meaningless. I don’t really think 3 shot groups are much of a test. I was only trying to point out that it is way too common for a guy to shoot one 1 inch group at 100 yards and four 1.5 groups and low and behold he proclaims he and his rifle to be a 1 MOA shooter because he did it once.. And, that shooting 1 MOA shooting at 100 yards in no way guarantees that there are going to be 4 inch groups at 400 yards or 6 inch groups at 600 yards.. That was my point, no arrogance intended.

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OK...."now" I see where you are coming.
Maybe I mis-read the intent of your previous post.
It happens sometimes.
I stand corrected and my apologies Sir.