MOA Shooters

[TxBobS]

Why would it matter?
Because it's much easier to have tight groups at 25 meters than it is at 100 meters.

I think that except for wind, it's the same. If you can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards, you should be able to shoot 1/4" groups at 25. That's what is great about measuring in MOA; it is the same at any distance.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

MOA stays the same, but accuracy and precision do not. For example, sight alignment errors tend to affect poi linearly while sight picture errors do
Not.

 

[SabbathWolf]

MOA stays the same, but accuracy and precision do not. For example, sight alignment errors tend to affect poi linearly while sight picture errors do
Not.

Exactly.
That's the point I was trying to make.
I guess I just didn't say it right.
Pretend math is one thing...but actual shooting is another.

 

[SabbathWolf]

I think that except for wind, it's the same. If you can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards, you should be able to shoot 1/4" groups at 25. That's what is great about measuring in MOA; it is the same at any distance.

That's true.
But if you reverse that, the results can be quite different.
If you can shoot 1/4" @ 25 yards...that does not mean you'll ever be able to shoot 1" groups @ 100 yards.
In theory...sure.
But in reality...many times such is truly not the case.

 

[jim243]

Why would this matter? 1 MOA at 25 yards is 1 MOA at 300

Not sure I understand, and not sure that is correct. A .25 MOA at 25 yards is 1.00 MOA at 100 yards (MOA is always measured at 100 yards). (1/4 inch at 25 yards, 1.0 inch at 100 yard and 3.0 inchs at 300 yards, that's one MOA)

Jim

 

[Bushpilot]

MOA accuracy is progressively harder to maintain the further out you shoot. Shooting MOA groups at 25 or 100 yards does not mean that you or your rifle will shoot them at 200 or 300 or more. Everything from the wind, bullet stability, visual acuity, mirage and, from what I've heard, even the rotation of the earth and the friction between the rotating bullet and the air make it more and more difficult to maintain MOA groups the further out you shoot. I've had several rifles that would shoot 5 shot MOA groups at 100 yards and two that would consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. But, when I fired those rifles at 200 yards, even on a calm day those groups would often triple in size or more, not just double. As far as the original post is concerned, I too occasional see some pretty shabby shooting, even from a bench at the range. Shooting off a bench rest isn't as easy as it looks, there is definitely a knack to it. I got better at it while doing lots of load development for my varmint rifles. That practice carried over somewhat when I shoot prone or sitting but I'm still only a fair shot when shooting standing offhand, but I'm working on it.

 

[JDGray]

If I cant get my rifles shooting under an inch at 100yrds, with handloads, with good bullets, I'm pretty disapointed. Some do lots better than 1"

Now 6" at 600yrds? Now were talking shooter skills I aint got, everytime!

 

[Narwhal]

Remington 700 police models are reputed to be consistent sub MOA straight from the facotry, as are tactical-type savages.

Thompson center puts a 1 MOA guarantee on their Icon bolt actions, and some high end makers, like G.A. Precision produce guns with 1/2 MOA guarantees.

 

[SabbathWolf]

Remington 700 police models are reputed to be consistent sub MOA straight from the facotry, as are tactical-type savages.

Thompson center puts a 1 MOA guarantee on their Icon bolt actions, and some high end makers, like G.A. Precision produce guns with 1/2 MOA guarantees.

I can't speak for Remy, but my Savage is pretty darn accurate. You're right.
Even with lots of practice, I'll probably still never be a good enough shooter to actually do the rifle justice though.
But I'll sure keep trying....

 

[xmanpike]

I currently have a Rem 700 .270 Win, that Ive had the trigger worked on, I fibergalss bedded it myself and I handload my own rounds. I can consistently produce .5-.75 MOA groups off sandbags at 100 yds. I have new Tikka t3 in .243 win. It only has 25 rounds through it, but the last two 5 shot groups I got were both right at 1 MOA. I dont think I would keep a rifle/scope that I could not produce sub MOA groups with at 100 yards off a bench with good conditions.

 

[boricua9mm]

Why would this matter? 1 MOA at 25 yards is 1 MOA at 300.

I think the rest of the fellas here covered it pretty well. I will add that I have seen rifles whose MOA value at 200 yards was actually tighter than it was when measured at 100 yards. On top of that there are ammo variances that may not be so noticeable at 25 yards but are exacerbated when shooting at 100. If a given ammo has a significant velocity spread (like a lot of the cheap bulk stuff), then its affects on accuracy are much more dramatic the further out you get.

Data matters. What we *think* is regular and consistent often times is not.

 

[Art Eatman]

If the rifle/ammo combination will shoot tight groups for me at the benchrest, it should do the same for you at the benchrest. With a decent package, tight groups are very easy from the bench.

To me, rifleman skill is what can be done in the field, from field positions. Offhand, leaning against a tree, resting on a boulder, whatever. But that's not where I've ever tried for groups. I just wanted to kill a jackrabbit, coyote, javelina or deer--and that's pretty much been a one-shot deal.

Granted, I started messing with all this centerfire happiness in 1950, so I likely have a different perspective from a lot of folks...

 

[hardluk1]

I own several rifles that are capible of MOA or less one thats a solid 1 1/4" at 400 yards with handloads. Now If i could do that each time out . HA Even my 10/22 cutom will shoot on my good day a .220 50 yard group. My everday average may be closer to 1/2"

 

[PzGren]

If I change scopes again, I will be at the MOA groups with the Sako Vixen in .222 but I prefer this old scope in 4x32.

 

[boricua9mm]

If the rifle/ammo combination will shoot tight groups for me at the benchrest, it should do the same for you at the benchrest. With a decent package, tight groups are very easy from the bench.

This is where complete data, statistically significant shot groups and repeatability come into play. Often times we'll hear of a guy who took his Romanian AK and a few rounds of Wolf and somehow managed to get three shots to land close together at 100 yards. Or, he actually shot a 5 round group and since the other two shots where nowhere near the other three shots, he writes them off as "fliers" and does not include them in the group measurements. He is not able to consistently reproduce the 3-shot feat, and when he writes off "fliers" we are looking at falsified data. Next thing you know, he is here telling us his AK shoots MOA.

Nowadays, not even the gun rag writers take 3-shot groups seriously. They typically shoot for 5-shot groups, repeated a few times and then report an average. Since we're interested in the rifle & ammo performance, taking the human element out of the variables is preferred, hence the importance of communicating the method of how the rifle was rested. After all, we wanna know what the rifle will do.

 

[TxBobS]

Not sure I understand, and not sure that is correct. A .25 MOA at 25 yards is 1.00 MOA at 100 yards (MOA is always measured at 100 yards). (1/4 inch at 25 yards, 1.0 inch at 100 yard and 3.0 inchs at 300 yards, that's one MOA)

Jim

You said two different things there. 1 MOA is about .25" at 25 yards, 1" at 100 yards and 3" at 300 yards. 1 MOA is 1 MOA no matter what the distance is. .25 MOA at 25 yards is not the same a 1 MOA at 100 yards.

MOA is not measured at any distance. MOA is a cone, an angle if you will. The further away from the muzzle, the wider the cone gets. But regardless of distance, it is always the same. 1 MOA at 25 feet from the muzzle is 1 MOA at 2 miles.

Ok. I can see what you guys are saying about ammo differences in addition to wind that can affect accuracy out further. I guess what I was trying to say is that if you can shoot 1 MOA, the distance doesn't matter. You and your rifle are "capable" of shooting 1 MOA at 25 yards or 300. You may need to have a calm day and perfect ammo (for your rifle) to do it though at the longer distances though.

If you aren't capable of shooting 1 MOA, then you can't do it at any distance.

 

[dubbleA]

I once managed to get my Savage 110 in 30-06 to put 3 shots into roughly the same hole using federal blue box ammo when the sun was shining down on me and moon and stars lined up with a redfield 3-9.

So therefore I just tell friends and the internets that I have a 1/4 MOA shooter that will do it all day long if I do my part. I even carry the ragged piece of target paper in my wallet to show em.

 

[mortablunt]

I'm not MoA or even remotely close to it.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Ok. I can see what you guys are saying about ammo differences in addition to wind that can affect accuracy out further. I guess what I was trying to say is that if you can shoot 1 MOA, the distance doesn't matter. You may need to have a calm day and perfect ammo (for your rifle) to do it though at the longer distances though.

You've obviously never tried it.

The unit of measurement remains the same, yes. But the ability to shoot a minute, two minutes, or whatever groups at 100 yards does not correlate to the same size, as measured in minutes, at longer distances.

My best score last year in a 20 shot F-T/R match at 600 yards was a 193-5X. But my average was 185.


To put that into perspective, that same rifle will shoot 3/4 MOA groups at 100 yards off a bipod. If the "MOA ability rule" held true, my mid-range average ought to be 10s and Xs, with just a few 9s here and there.


I'm not interested in theoreticals and "ideal conditions". I'm interested in my actual performance, under all the conditions that I might find myself in.

John Pepper - inventor of the famed Pepper Popper - is fond of saying a rifleman hasn't truly master the art of riflery until he can hit his target, within the entirety of the effective range of the weapon, under any condition.

 

[MCMXI]

The only targets that increase in size with increasing distance are paper ones.

 

[ford8nr]

Intresting conversation, this is just what I was talking about in my original posting. Anyone who thinks just because they shot a 1moa group at 25yds they can do it at 200yds never tried it. I can drop 10/10 steel sil then go 5 or 7/10 at longer distance. Using MOA mentality I should just shoot 10/10 and tell everyone I went 20/20

 

[BoilerUP]

I am consistent 0.75-1.0 MOA 5-shot accurate with all of my scoped rifles, which are more accurate than I am (or they get moved down the road). Occasionally I put things together for tighter groupings.

I think most experienced shooters, when using a tuned rifle shooting tuned handloads, could be close to 1 MOA...but most just never get all the pieces (rifle, mount, optic, ammo & technique) put together.

I do have a load developed for my 260 that I get frequent 0.5 MOA groups with, which makes me curious how accurate that weapon system would be with a real marksman driving the thing.

 

[RedHeadHunter]

In reference to the observations of the OP, I only go the public ranges when I need to replenish my brass supplies or a change of scenery. I may bring on of my sub MOA rifles, but I don't usually do any serious shooting or load development work because the bench and seat I build on my range fits me better. I will fire form brass to prep it for final loading. I still get under 2 MOA with unfire formed brass.

Minute of angle refers to 1/60 of a degree.

 

[tdstout]

...

 

[tdstout]

I am not an MOA shooter and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I guess that's why I like shotguns so much With rifles though, I can shoot well enough to bring down deer, and that's good enough for me.