Is it possible to pack a CCW that could defeat a body armor wearing assailant?

Habeed said:

Out of curiosity, does anything that fits into the "pistol" category of weapons have the power to go through, say, a level IIIA ballistic vest?
I picked level IIIA because I don't know what the Colorado joker was wearing, but the next level up (threat level III) vests can stop 7.62 rifle rounds, and I know armor that can do that is very heavy and bulky. Also, you aren't getting that kind of power in a pistol. News reports say he was mostly shooting at targets leaving the theater, and he would stop firing to reload, so there WERE chances to take him out.

The other way is AP ammunition. Now, I'm merely curious if such ammo exists, it doesn't matter if it is civilian available or not. I just wonder if it is even technically possible. To go through armor, the ammo would need a tungsten sabot in the core, and it would need to be a VERY hot load, with lots of propellant to get the velocity up. Can any firearm that is remotely compact fire a round with enough power to do the job?

Obviously, if you "conceal" one of these, it doesn't matter what kind of armor the guy was wearing : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

But somehow I think even the pimply faced kids at the ticket counter would spot that under your clothes...

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Sure, but please understand how such a fight might go. Hit someone armored-up with a couple of stout 10mm or 45ACP shots somewhere near their center of Mass and it's at least going to be akin to massive boy punches even if the bullets do not penetrate.

They're going to be knocked back on their heels or all the way down. This would provide an opportunity of possibly moving up for a potential head shot(s) or at least several more body shots until the person was swarmed.

Fn 5.7

They're going to be knocked back on their heels or all the way down.

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If the rounds had this much kinetic energy, they would also knock down the person shooting them. This is a myth.

As for pistol rounds that can penetrate level IIIA armor, sure. The faster and smaller diameter the round, the better. 7.62 Tokarev and 5.7x28mm are both very good soft armor penetrators when loaded with the right ammo.

.22 magnum, solid points.

Now throw in the facts of the scene, dark theater, panicking patrons so no clean line of fire. Now to put him down for more than a second would take a prefect face shot. Well the best shots in government with a hand gun are the Air Marshal's service (read their requirements as they are tough on marksmanship) I doubt a LEO or even an AM could do it under pressure in that scene without risking killing a patron or two. Now the average CCW carry person with even good training might do a bit better than a LEO however I doubt it. Also keep in mind the reason the FBI and others went to semi auto was due to the bank robbery in S. Florida a number of years ago where the went up against a well armed group wearing body armor similar to what this guy had. They hit them but they didn't go down until someone got a head shot due to no helmets used by them.

No last but not least no gun policy at the theater except a LEO which wasn't there.

Maybe aim for his hands and then his ankles?

Actually the bank robbery is why they started issuing carbines, not semi-auto pistols.

Your average LEO probably goes to the range once a year to qualify and is probably less likely to get a headshot than your average trained CCWer.

I've heard that he wasn't wearing body armor at all, only a tactical vest. Then again I've also heard that he WAS wearing armor... So basically I have no clue what he was actually wearing. Either way, not important since we're assuming the threat does have body armor.

Depending on what rating armor they have and the condition it's in, I guess you could maybe throw a normal (9mm and up) pistol round fast enough to beat it. It'd probably have to be really fast though and vest ratings probably have a little margin for error, so beating their rated velocity by a few FPS may not be enough. Probably not worth the effort. One of those hot rod pistol rounds might stand a chance, again, worth the effort? I don't think so, not in a carry gun.

AP pistol ammo definitely exists, though it's not something you'll be able to load up with. There's also 5.7mm, which was designed to defeat body armor, but the ammo marketed to civilians is not supposed to be able to defeat pistol rated body armor.

I might try shooting low, hit the guy in the pelvis and he is going down. Hands aren't a good target, neither are the ankles/feet, they move too much and they're too small. Even a hit in the vest is gonna at least hurt him though, might give you a temporary advantage if he's reeling from a hit.

2wheels, all we know is he purchased the tac vest. We don't know if he had armor on underneath the vest.

Look around in here, and you can find stuff pretty much on point for this discussion:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

The explosive penetrator rounds the army uses are actually depleted uranium, which as it hits the armor it sharpens itself as little bits break off as powder - depleted uranium powder is pyrophoric and that is why you have the explosion. High kinetic energy is a part of that. The ones used in rockets use a much bigger warhead, and I doubt you'll get an accurate shot with one of those at rates that a standard CCW pistol would manage.

For armor penetration, you're more likely looking at a bottleneck case, like 7.62 tokarev, 5.7mm or even .357 sig. Something with the power of a wider bullet, but with a smaller meplat for higher penetration.

The big issue here is that a thinner, faster pistol round is going to be better at barrier penetration and better against armored targets, but is going to have a significantly smaller wound tract. So, unless you carry two pistols - one for armored targets and one for unarmored targets, you would have to decide - 0.2-0.35" wound tract and armor penetration, or 0.65"+ wound tract and useless against armor.
Also keep in mind that Type IIIA body armor is easily concealed (just go to Amazon and look up "Type IIIA bullet proof vest" and you'll find what I'm talking about), so you won't know whether to use your wide JHPs or your penetrating rounds until after you fail to penetrate the target.

Personally, I'll carry standard JHPs for the 99.99% of encounters where the assailant doesn't have body armor, and aim for the head or pelvis for the 90% of times where they are armored, but aren't in a full set.

Habeed said:

Then again, this looks a helluva lot simpler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESElG05Ud1s

That pistol could be carried concealed just fine. Shame someone didn't have one of those.

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Yeah, rather than get complicated with rockets or explosive I'd start by going small and fast, like FN did with their 5.7mm round. Commercially available 5.7mm ammo isn't supposed to be able to penetrate body though, at least not when fired from the FiveSeven.

With that vid, I believe that body armor is supposed to be tested with something behind it to simulate a human wearing it or it will fail, like that guys III-A vest did.

Any round hitting a vest is going to feel like taking a baseball bat to the chest. If hit center mass may even knock the wind out. This is from LEO's and military that have taken rounds into armor vest even with ballistic plates. I know I would have at least tried.

Face shots

I stand corrected.

Mine uses two plates, and is supposed to work up to .38 Special 158 grains 900+ fps.

The makers rate the vests, and it's written on the plates in the vest.
They are hot, uncomfortable, and NOT all that easy to conceal.

It's not like you can go down to the corner store and buy a vest that's bullet proof, and, that level of bullet proof comes at a price.

To defeat a heavy handgun or rifle round requires hard plates, IIRC.

This is the first time I've seriously considered the importance of having TWO CCW people together, at least in places with such crowds. One provides cover fire (guy is not likely to be able to respond well getting hit, even with armor) while the other moves in closer for deadlier hits.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ps&field-keywords=concealable+iiia+body+armor

You're right. Really hard to get ahold of. Amazon.com is such an exclusive site, and $350 is way out of the price range for peole who can afford a Glock.

I did some testing with a ballistic vest I had laying around; it stopped .22LR and 9mm every time, 40S&W (165gr jacketed round nose) about 70% of the time, and 357 Mag (158gr XTP out of a 2 inch barrel) about 40% of the time. This test was done at 5 yards; I took the panels out of the cordura and drew one inch circles spaced about 3/4 inch apart and shot ten rounds of each at them.

So yes, if your shoot a guy with a 40S&W, there is a 30% chance he will bleed. A 357Mag raises your probability to 60%. The more you shoot him, the more likely you are to kill him.

25cschaefer said:

I did some testing with a ballistic vest I had laying around; it stopped .22LR and 9mm every time, 40S&W (165gr jacketed round nose) about 70% of the time, and 357 Mag (158gr XTP out of a 2 inch barrel) about 40% of the time. This test was done at 5 yards; I took the panels out of the cordura and drew one inch circles spaced about 3/4 inch apart and shot ten rounds of each at them.

So yes, if your shoot a guy with a 40S&W, there is a 30% chance he will bleed. A 357Mag raises your probability to 60%. The more you shoot him, the more likely you are to kill him.

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What level was the armor rated at? And were you using any backing? I believe that makes a difference, the NIJ standards call for a clay backing when testing to simulate someone wearing it.

40/357/maybe 45acp with ball, and hes going down, wind knocked out, most likely with broken ribs. Look at any video on youtube of cops shot in the line of duty. Even with something like a 380 to the vest and they drop. The bullet doesn't have to penetrate the vest.

A 70 lb compound hunting bow will defeat body armor.

Maybe everyone should carry one of those.

The thing is, your chance of meeting up with some BG wearing body armor in a lifetime are probably not as great as being killed by a falling piece of Russian space junk.

Some things you just can't worry about, or be prepared for every time you stick your head out from under the covers.

rc