Is it possible to pack a CCW that could defeat a body armor wearing assailant?

[leadcounsel]

A rare scenario. But a $200 Tokarev and surplus ammo will penetrate soft body armor. Ammo is about 15 cents a round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNEi7NrAtqo

Think this through though. You are much more likely to need ammo that expands and stops in your assailant than penetrates body armor.

Carrying ammo that defeats body armor will increase your chances of overshooting or overpenetrating and injuring innocents. It is the OPPOSITE of frangible ammo. Probably not wise to carry in a self defense firearm.

 

[Skribs]

Think this through though. You are much more likely to need ammo that expands and stops in your assailant than penetrates body armor.

Carrying ammo that defeats body armor will increase your chances of overshooting or overpenetrating and injuring innocents. It is the OPPOSITE of frangible ammo. Probably not wise to carry in a self defense firearm.

Unless it's a BUG.

 

[mljdeckard]

I assume ALL of my shots and ammo will overpenetrate.

 

[Tango57]

Am I on the wrong board? Somebody mentioned the 5.7 several times an no flame war started.......

LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk when i should have been doing something useful

 

[Mauser lover]

What if somebody made a revolver in .223 WSSM? I think that that would work. It might only be three shots, but it might work. Unless the pressures would be way too high....

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
I think the .357 Maximum operates at like 70,000psi or something. A 6" firing hard, fast pointy things would tend to penetrate, especially were it stable.

 

[Skribs]

Am I on the wrong board? Somebody mentioned the 5.7 several times an no flame war started.......

That's because nobody really argues that the narrow, fast 5.7mm round is good for armor penetration. I'm curious as to what rounds were being used by the person who shot through the vest with it. I'd also like to see a test with other rounds, some (like a basic 9mm round) to prove that the vest actually works, and others (like a hot .357 sig round) to see if we can't punch through it with those.

 

[bigfatdave]

Am I on the wrong board? Somebody mentioned the 5.7 several times an no flame war started.

If the FivEsE7eNNN is actually good for anything, it really is punching holes in objects generally considered bullet-resistant

Of course, I'll just start the flame war anyway:
The .22TCM round fires from a gun that isn't goofy, and does everything the 5.7mm round does just as well
<neener>

 

[Tango57]

Thanks. Now i feel at home


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[ZeSpectre]

I've seen the penetrating power of
7.62x25mm Tok rounds
.357 SIG
10mm
and .22 Magnum.
It is not at all out of the realm of possibility that "just the right hit" from one of these might penetrate.

REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE.
These are things I either witnessed, or saw the immediate aftermath.

Level II vest penetrated by the last two rounds of a 5 round, rapid fire, close range (less than two feet) burst of .22LR rounds from a Ruger semi-auto. The rounds essentially kept hitting the same spot.
The last two bullets were still slowed enough that they barely penetrated the officer's skin but they did penetrate.

Criminal wearing a home-made "chest plate" of steel belted tire material absorbed several 9mm +P+ rounds without injury until one of them deflected from the top of the "armor" and into his neck, severing the carotid artery, subject collapsed almost immediately and died from blood loss within minutes.

Criminal advancing with a knife was shot in the hand by a .40 S&W round. Bullet traveled between the knuckles, up the forearm, and deflected off the bone severing an artery (or vein, I don't remember which) resulting in rapid blood loss. The criminal immediately ceased all threatening activity to try and stop the blood loss. (It's really hard to armor hands).

The real bottom line is this. If you can and do shoot you may penetrate, or may catch a "chink" in the armor, or any of a thousand other "pure lucky chance" events can happen. Heck you may just create such a psychological backlash that the goblin freaks and runs away or gives up. If you don't or can't shoot (say because you are unarmed) then there is ZERO chance that this might happen.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I have often wondered what type of trauma a .500 S&W with 440gr bullet at 1000fps might deliver to someone in body armor. It would definitely knock the wind out of them regardless, and might create so much shock to the internal organs as to STOP them from working. Just a thought, for a different approach.

[/IMG]

 

[Kynoch]

I don't know what you're trying to get at, here. Being hit in the gut with a pistol round (or even most rifle rounds) that does not penetrate your body armor, will NOT knock you down, unless you are precariously balanced already. The muzzle flip of a pistol CAN be overcome quite easily, by simply attaching a buttstock to it and holding it against your shoulder, thereby extending a larger part of your body mass to resist the recoil (note that this constitutes a short barreled rifle and requires an NFA tax stamp!). Indeed, firing a rifle from the shoulder causes more unbalancing than being hit by the same round in most of the torso, because the shoulder is higher up on your body and has more leverage in terms of toppling a standing person.


The force remains the same regardless of the rate of deceleration. You could wear a plate of steel armor in front of you (rendering instant deceleration), and the round would still not knock you down upon impact.


The laws of physics disagree with you. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It doesn't matter what caliber or what type of gun you're firing from (excluding mounted weaponry, I'm talking hand held); if it doesn't threaten to knock you down while firing, it will not knock down a target of near equal mass. Knock the wind out of you? Sure. Crack or even break a rib? Sure. Cause internal bleeding? Maybe. But it won't knock you down from inertia alone. It could very well cause enough physical pain for the target to collapse and let gravity take him down, but rest assured it is not the bullet itself.

You're still not getting it.

It simplest terms I can knock an NFL lineman on his backside depending on what he is doing and how his weight is distributed when drive into him.

On the other hand if he's waiting and ready, there is just no way even if I expend the same amount of force.

 

[Kynoch]

I have often wondered what type of trauma a .500 S&W with 440gr bullet at 1000fps might deliver to someone in body armor. It would definitely knock the wind out of them regardless, and might create so much shock to the internal organs as to STOP them from working. Just a thought, for a different approach.

[/IMG]

People pretty much die from two different things with respect to gunshots. Either the electricity stops flowing in their noggins or their blood pressure drops as they bleeds out.

 

[Giterboosted]

Don't know if mentioned yet as I didn't read all the posts but 7.62x25 with fmj would probably give it a run for its money

 

[rondog]

Just shoot 'em where they don't have any armor on. Can't cover everything.....

 

[General Geoff]

You're still not getting it.

It simplest terms I can knock an NFL lineman on his backside depending on what he is doing and how his weight is distributed when drive into him.

On the other hand if he's waiting and ready, there is just no way even if I expend the same amount of force.

You are implying that in order to not be knocked over while shooting a pistol, you have to brace yourself against the recoil. I've never needed to brace myself against the gun as if it were a fire hose. This is true for some particularly powerful dangerous game cartridges, though. So yes, if you're shooting a .577 T-Rex at the assailant (and his body armor somehow manages to stop it), you'll knock him down.

 

[mdauben]

Fn 5.7

Probably not, unless you are shooting the special AP ammo with the steel penetrator that is not available for sale to civilians, like all specialized "armor piercing" ammo. I would think your best bet would be hot .357 loads.

 

[Skribs]

Don't know if mentioned yet as I didn't read all the posts but 7.62x25 with fmj would probably give it a run for its money

I'd like to see something modern in this cartridge, but as it stands there aren't many platforms that this is available in.

 

[Certaindeaf]

What's that crazy hot Russian 9x19 pistol and cartridge? Of course they also make AP for it.. and 2-3 shot burst?
A fairly formidable weapon I'd venture.

 

[WinThePennant]

It is true that the person on the receiving end of a bullet is not experiencing the same thing as a person firing the weapon.

So, the often bantered about notion that you can't knock someone over with a bullet because it would have to knock down the shooter is 100% WRONG.

A bullet with sufficient mass and energy will definitely knock someone down while also leaving the shooter standing on both feet. I'm not going to get into the weeds about which caliber would do that, etc., but suffice it to say that it can be easily done.

 

[antiquus]

.327 magnum. There are loads up to 1500fps out of a 3" barrel, and out of a 5½" barrel over 1800fps (and holy crap over 750ft/lbs).

 

[mljdeckard]

Winthepennant,

Nope, it won't. I don't remember if it was this thread or a different thread I already posted this challenge: Take a 50 lb bag of cement, and stand it up on an oil drum. Shoot it a few times. What happens to that bag is the same thing that happens to a human target most of the time. A service pistol bullet will not 'knock someone over'. They may FALL over from other factors, but not the bullet's energy.

 

[Skribs]

I wonder if they'll do a Desert Eagle in .327 federal?

Honestly, if I were looking for armor penetration, I would get an autoloader in a bottlenecked cartridge (i.e. 5.7, 357SIG, or 7.62 tokarev) and carry JHPs, but have a spare magazine loaded with a hot, pointy cartridge.

 

[WinThePennant]

Winthepennant,

Nope, it won't. I don't remember if it was this thread or a different thread I already posted this challenge: Take a 50 lb bag of cement, and stand it up on an oil drum. Shoot it a few times. What happens to that bag is the same thing that happens to a human target most of the time. A service pistol bullet will not 'knock someone over'. They may FALL over from other factors, but not the bullet's energy.

You are already failing the test. I didn't venture a type of caliber or gun, but you did (service pistol).

I'm fully aware that a common service pistol won't do this.

It is possible to devise a weapon that will, however.

The fallacious argument that a bullet hitting something is an equal but opposite reaction to the person firing the bullet is always carried out by those who obviously never took Physics.

You can apply Physics to help determine the recoil of a gun.

Bullet Mass × Muzzle Velocity = Gun Mass × Recoil Velocity

There are other factors, such as whether or not the gun has a recoil spring or is ported, but you get the idea.

 

[General Geoff]

It is true that the person on the receiving end of a bullet is not experiencing the same thing as a person firing the weapon.

I'd be more than happy to entertain this assertion, but only if you have some kind of proof.

So, the often bantered about notion that you can't knock someone over with a bullet because it would have to knock down the shooter is 100% WRONG.

Basic laws of physics say otherwise. Again, do you have any proof, even circumstantial or anecdotal evidence that backs up your claim?

A bullet with sufficient mass and energy will definitely knock someone down while also leaving the shooter standing on both feet. I'm not going to get into the weeds about which caliber would do that, etc., but suffice it to say that it can be easily done.

That's not sufficient, at all. Saying something does not make it so. Details, please.