red dot on handgun practical?

I've had a Burris Fastfire on my Buckmark for several years now. It is really neat for target shooting, but there's no way in hell I'd use one for a carry or home defense. It has been my experience that it requires a different hold and a different head position that is unlike any other handgun shooting. When most people try out my pistol they can't find the dot. I tell them "Keep your head up, and title the barrel down" and eventually they find the dot. Sure, you can practice until it becomes intuitive, but then you might run into some serious problems with conventional iron sighted pistols.

In my opinion, they're sweet trinkets for target work, but not for defending one's self.

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A lot of that is how the sight is mounted. I have a Fastfire mounted on a Ruger Mk III similar to the way yours is mounted on your Buckmark. The optic is way above the bore. I agree that it sometimes can be hard to find the dot.

If your RDS was mounted into a milled slot on the slide of your gun, it will sit much lower (though this is not possible on all pistols). If used in conjunction with taller (suppressor type) iron sights, they can actually co-witness with the irons. That way, when you bring the gun up as you normally would to use the irons, as the irons come into view, the red dot will be there.

The difference is you then don't have to focus on the sights/sight picture, but on the target with the dot superimposed over it, which in my experience, is faster (particularly since it takes me longer to focus on irons with my aging eyes).

Different handguns require different holds anyway,

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YES.. I guess I should have clarified. I hold my 1911s the same. I hold my Ruger MK III different. Grabbing any 1911, I should be able to grip, point and then be lined up iron or dot. But that's what I practice more with.

YES.. I guess I should have clarified. I hold my 1911s the same. I hold my Ruger MK III different. Grabbing any 1911, I should be able to grip, point and then be lined up iron or dot. But that's what I practice more with.

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My point was that yes, if you are practiced on one specific gun, you're going to have to adjust slightly. But if you're used to sighting in with multiple guns, it should be easy to find the dot as you draw.

I don't understand this at ALL. The lens and dot is at most a 1/2" higher off the barrel than iron sights. It should (and does for me) require the same hold. I have a 1911 in iron sights and Burris Fast Fire.. same hold, same head position.

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The reason that it is a half inch higher is exactly why both the hold and your head position directly change whether or not you are able to see the dot. The last thing you want to do is be waving around your muzzle in circles looking for the right position to find that dot.

Illustrating this is really simple. Take a pistol equipped with iron sights, pick it up and aim it. Slap the red dot on, pick it up and aim it the same exact way. More likely than not you will not find the dot, and certainly not with enough speed for self defense use. The muzzle will need to come down some. If you use an aggressive shooting stance, your head will be titled forward and not lazily back. Both head position and the angle of your grip need to change. This has not only been my experience, but the experience of each and every person that has said "hey, can I try out your pistol?"

Feel free to carry a pistol with a red dot; if you do you would be better served by practicing almost exclusively with it.

Slap the red dot on, pick it up and aim it the same exact way. More likely than not you will not find the dot, and certainly not with enough speed for self defense use.

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This makes it seem to me like a training issue, rather than a platform issue. You're trying to do the same thing when you know the same thing will not work in this situation. Once you're trained with it, I don't see this as being an issue.

This makes it seem to me like a training issue, rather than a platform issue. You're trying to do the same thing when you know the same thing will not work in this situation. Once you're trained with it, I don't see this as being an issue.

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That would also be my opinion. The reason people use red dots is that they ARE quicker than iron sights.

It's all about presentation. Cowitnessed iron sights make it easier to train yourself to use the red dot. Line up the sights and the dot is there, after a while you're not lining up the sights, just looking at the target and bring the dot up into your line of sight. It takes some practice but it's worth the effort.

This makes it seem to me like a training issue, rather than a platform issue. You're trying to do the same thing when you know the same thing will not work in this situation. Once you're trained with it, I don't see this as being an issue.

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Absolutely it's a "Training Issue!" Here's the breakdown of that issue:

- Do you train with a rifle, shotgun and handgun?
- Do you train with multiple types of rifles, shotguns and handguns?
- How often do you shoot? Once a week? Seven times a week?
- How many rounds are involved in your training sessions?
- How many different types of guns do you carry?
- How many different carry methods do you employ?

Actually keeping trained even with a single rifle, a single shotgun, and a single pistol requires dedication, lots of time and lots of money. If you work for a Law Enforcement Agency, Dept. of Defense, or other Gov't entity, this may not be such a big issue as the range time may be part of your regular schedule and you don't have to pay for the ammo. If you live and work in the private sector it is a different world and a very real concern. When you go and complicate things by adding multiple types of firearms with different means of operation, you are asking for trouble. When the time comes and you have to pull that handgun and put it to use, are you going to remember that you brought the iron sighted pistol or the Red Dot pistol? Potentially deadly encounters do strange things to your mind; it has been my experience that in this situation you will NOT be reflecting on the event of you holstering up that day.

If you want to carry a gun with a red dot sight on it, you had better be prepared to dedicate yourself to a completely different system of weapons presentation.

We can kid ourselves that we are Billy the Kid and an expert marksman with every firearm known to man and that we are always 110% on top of our game. Conversely, we can plan for failure and choose our carry systems accordingly. Personally, I'll stick to carrying handguns with a constant trigger pull, similar sights and similar grip angles.

If you want to carry a gun with a red dot sight on it, you had better be prepared to dedicate yourself to a completely different system of weapons presentation.

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The system is still the same, you just stop 1/2" lower. I'd argue that carrying a revolver and carrying a semi-auto, or carrying a Glock and carrying something with a "normal" grip angle are going to give you a much bigger difference.

The system is still the same, you just stop 1/2" lower.

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Do that and you won't see the dot. There is also angling down of the wrists that must be done.

I'd argue that carrying a revolver and carrying a semi-auto, or carrying a Glock and carrying something with a "normal" grip angle are going to give you a much bigger difference.

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No, not really. That particular difference is pretty much the same, and it's a real problem. If you've been carrying a 1911 for 10+ years and have done your job of training and staying proficient with that platform, shoving a Glock in your holster is going to give you that same exact issue; the gun will point way too high based on what you have ingrained into your mind and body through training. Switching back and forth between those pistols for carry and CCW training is going to do more harm than good. Been there, done that.

Even after 8 years of using a red dot sighted pistol as my sole rimfire plinker, to this day there are times when I pick it up and I must re-acquaint myself with the specific ergonomic requirements of that setup.

Since page 1 you've been trying to champion the use of RDS' for self defense on a handgun, with the premise that if they work on a rifle, then it must be equally great on a handgun. In the case of a rifle a cheek weld provides the shooter with the needed consistency each and every time. With a handgun offhand you have many more variable to contend with.

I can see that I'm not the only one telling you that they aren't ideal; so I'll have to side with the camp that is speaking from their own years of personal experience.

Your argument is that if you train without it for years and slap it into your holster with the RDS, you won't be ready to quickly sight in. What if you train with it, instead of just slapping it on and saying "there, now I'll hit with things easier!"?

Again, I have to point to competition shooters. If it is such a difficult issue to overcome, wouldn't they see reduced results with a red dot?

With the way that everyone is going with their rifles, shotguns and putting red dots on them, handguns are just naturally going to be next and red dots mounted on them will just naturally follow the trend.

Even after 8 years of using a red dot sighted pistol as my sole rimfire plinker, to this day there are times when I pick it up and I must re-acquaint myself with the specific ergonomic requirements of that setup.

I can see that I'm not the only one telling you that they aren't ideal; so I'll have to side with the camp that is speaking from their own years of personal experience.

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But your experience is limited to your particular gun and red dot set up. A milled slide and co-witnessed irons (designed specifically for self defense applications) is a whole different animal. If you haven't tried that set up, you can't know if it is ideal or not.

My own personal experience of a couple years is that I have problems acquiring the dot on a high rise Ruger mount, and no problem at all with my milled slide Glock.

RMR dual illuminated ....
The down side is that the amber dot washes out in bright sun light.

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No it doesn't, the brighter the light the brighter the dot gets from the light captured by the fiber optic. I've no problems using it on bright sunny days with white targets.

The only way I can wash out the dot is to be in a dimly lit room and point the dot out a window into something very bright - like my pool on a sunny day. I just don't see this as a realistic scenario worth the risk of a dead battery when you most need it.

While BUIS "solve" the dead battery issue, it introduces another potential problem under stress -- switching from focus on the target while looking thru the dot vs. focus on the front sight.

The system is still the same, you just stop 1/2" lower. I'd argue that carrying a revolver and carrying a semi-auto, or carrying a Glock and carrying something with a "normal" grip angle are going to give you a much bigger difference.

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I'd argue if this is likely an issue you are in as situation where you need your point shooting skills up to snuff!

Mount the RDS lower in the slide so the dot appears where the top of the front sight is/would be. Problem solved.

Mount the RDS lower in the slide so the dot appears where the top of the front sight is/would be. Problem solved.

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This isn't really possible unless the pistol is designed with a red dot in mind, something like the FNP tactical is the only one I can think of at the moment, although having taller "suppressor sights" on it is half the solution.

As us older folks with CCW have a hard time seeing the front sight without reading glasses grow in numbers, I'd not be surprised to see someone come out with a compact pistol with something like the Tirjicon dual illuminated RMR (battery free!) designed into the slide.

Not only is it possible, it's being done!

red dot on handgun practical?

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I guess it depends on what is considered "practical".
I find these pistols are practical for one thing or another.

This isn't really possible unless the pistol is designed with a red dot in mind, something like the FNP tactical is the only one I can think of at the moment, although having taller "suppressor sights" on it is half the solution.

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That's the only one that comes from the factory with a premilled slide, but I've seen pictures of Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, PPQs (or P99, can't remember which it was), and 1911s all with the slide milled to accept a RDS, and I'm sure most modern duty handguns have the capability to accept this modification.

While BUIS "solve" the dead battery issue, it introduces another potential problem under stress -- switching from focus on the target while looking thru the dot vs. focus on the front sight.

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I would get BUIS even on a tritium-based sight, because you never know. This issue exists with BUIS on a rifle, though, too.

I'd argue if this is likely an issue you are in as situation where you need your point shooting skills up to snuff!

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Very good point. If you can point-shoot without the RDS it should be the exact same point-shooting with it.